Sam,

Are you saying that using the Preciso you could keep the same grind setting and adjust dose to consistently dial in a shot? Also could you move from one coffee to another and quickly dial that in? If so I defer to your experience with the Preciso and suggest the OP try that for a short while. If he's still having trouble dialing in shots that are repeatable it would be time to upgrade grinders.

What I've found, even moving from a Mazzer Super Jolly to a Pharos, was a wider range of grind settings yielding good shots.

drgary wrote: Are you saying that using the Preciso you could keep the same grind setting and adjust dose to consistently dial in a shot?

Certainly. In fact I used the grind adjustment instead of dose to dial in a shot, and I don't see why I can't do so with dose instead. Not to be confused with Virtuoso, which is truly barely adequate for espresso adjustment. Preciso extends each of the step available on the Virtuoso into 11 microsteps for further fine-tuning.

drgary wrote:Also could you move from one coffee to another and quickly dial that in? If so I defer to your experience with the Preciso and suggest the OP try that for a short while. If he's still having trouble dialing in shots that are repeatable it would be time to upgrade grinders.

You can get into the ballpark, but not on-the-dot precision(from memory). It's more ideal for someone sticking with a single coffee. But as great as the Preciso is, I don't suggest it for long term espresso, especially with third wave hard light-roasted coffee. With medium/dark blend like the Red Bird or other comfort blend, I think OP will be very happy with the Preciso.

Actually, when the Preciso is working as intended, I would say it's on par with Super Jolly in performance and more ergonomic than the SJ. But, again, it loses out on the durability.

Admittedly I don't use my preciso much for espresso, I prefer my pharos for that. But when I have used it I didn't find it at all difficult to dial in. A newbie friend of mine got one recently to go with his La Peppina, and I had no trouble teaching him to dial it in either. As far as I know he's still quite satisfied.

The fine adjustment is plenty fine enough that you don't miss the continuous adjustability of something like a mazzer. I'd say the cup quality is on par with my old mazzer mini as well. Obviously the mazzer is more rugged and reliable.

You'll probably want to upgrade someday, but no need to do it right away. And even when you do you may want to hold on to the Preciso as a brew grinder.

samuellaw178 wrote:I have tried Preciso (paired with CC1 & Cremina, had Major & Pharos concurently) and my opinion is it's really a lot of grinder for the money. Only gripe is the longevity. No issue with consistency (I single dosed). No problem bringing out the coffee flavors either(compared to Pharos).

There are four grinder characteristics (according to me) which define grinders in the cup: Spectrum; Separation, Clarity and Mouthfeel. The Preciso and its budget, conic partners, including the LeLit PL53, do a good job on spectrum and are okay for mouthfeel. Separation and clarity, not so much.

If you get the same results in the cup with a Preciso and a big conic, there's something going on somewhere.

Any "adequate" or better grinder will be at least fairly consistent when single dosed -- which says more about single dosing than the grinder.

No argument that it's a lot of grinder for the money. No argument that its adjustment system works for espresso.

Isn't the idea of high end machine being more forgiving? Inconsistent machine+Inconsistent grinder(not Preciso for sure) = disaster. Forgiving machine+adequate grinder = decent result.

By "forgiving," we don't mean a machine which forgives the grinder or the beans, we mean one which forgives (slightly) flawed technique. By way of examples, preinfusion can compensate for imperfect distribution; and "temp stability," for sloppy flushing.

Espresso is like most production chains. You can't beat the weakest link. Forgiving Machine + Adeqate Grinder = Adequate Result. I really like coffee. Enough so I'll happily drink just about anything, and I suspect you and a lot of other H-Bers feel the same. But that doesn't mean we can't distinguish good from bad.

"Decent" or "Adequate" aren't our goals. "Exceptional espresso" is.

Rich

boar_d_laze wrote:There are four grinder characteristics (according to me) which define grinders in the cup: Spectrum; Separation, Clarity and Mouthfeel. The Preciso and its budget, conic partners, including the LeLit PL53, do a good job on spectrum and are okay for mouthfeel. Separation and clarity, not so much.

If you get the same results in the cup with a Preciso and a big conic, there's something going on somewhere.

By no mean I am implying Preciso gives the same cup characteristic as big conical nor I'm disagreeing with your statement. Where you're at is what I considered 'high level field'. For someone just started into espresso journey, there's no way one can appreciate the cup that big conic brings to the table as compared to a small conic like Preciso, with so many variables going on, while trying to zero in on the espresso taste profile as a whole. That's why I categorized (according to OP) it as 'moderate bottleneck'. To be able to taste the big vs small conic and eventually appreciate the difference, one needs to be consciously tasting, learning and developing the palate. That at least holds true in my experience.

When dialed in, all decent grinders such as Preciso can bring out the coffee origin flavors and represent what the roast master is trying to portray. That's what I considered as a decent grinder - it does its job and get out of the picture of the whole espresso production chain. It does not distort the flavor in any way.

I don't think excellent espresso didn't exist before the big conic. It's just that the big conic brings a certain x factor to the table, be it more separation or clarity (I love that).

boar_d_laze wrote:By "forgiving," we don't mean a machine which forgives the grinder or the beans, we mean one which forgives (slightly) flawed technique. By way of examples, preinfusion can compensate for imperfect distribution; and "temp stability," for sloppy flushing.

Espresso is like most production chains. You can't beat the weakest link. Forgiving Machine + Adeqate Grinder = Adequate Result. I really like coffee. Enough so I'll happily drink just about anything, and I suspect you and a lot of other H-Bers feel the same. But that doesn't mean we can't distinguish good from bad.

"Decent" or "Adequate" aren't our goals. "Exceptional espresso" is.

There're a lot of interesting points here. You're right but I would also add a point. Certain machines such as levers(not sure about OP's choice of machine) are indeed more forgiving to grinders (when not dialed in properly). To me, most coffee has many faces. It depends on which angle(pressure/grind/dose) you want to evaluate from. There is no x grind setting x dose at 9 bar, that is only truly THE coffee.

Good and bad, yes, definitely we can differentiate. You're spot on again. I'll admit that I do occasionaly 'sink' less than decent coffee into my stomach. But a lot of time it is 'different' or 'less than amazing', and not neccesarily 'bad'. It is difficult to sink everything 'less than amazing' because I would probably be sinking 85% of my shots, and the standard just keeps increasing.

samuellaw178 wrote:Maybe the standard of 'excellent' here is really high. I have tried Preciso (paired with CC1 & Cremina, had Major & Pharos concurently) and my opinion is it's really a lot of grinder for the money. Only gripe is the longevity. No issue with consistency (I single dosed). No problem bringing out the coffee flavors either(compared to Pharos).

Isn't the idea of high end machine being more forgiving? Inconsistent machine+Inconsistent grinder(not Preciso for sure) = disaster. Forgiving machine+adequate grinder = decent result.

Still, I am a bit shocked at the standard here.

I agree, a lot of us here - including myself, get hung up on the fact we have these awesome titan grinders.. Would I ever go back to something like a preciso? NO WAY, but, that doesn't mean it can't produce amazing grinds for an amazing espresso.

I'd like to input my experience here. My neighbor has a Preciso and I think a Saeco or Starbucks variant. I was quite surprised when it actually made a decent shot, flavors are much more muted, but hey, a decent shot of espresso. If you stick to comfort blends, likely you'll be at least happy with the espresso you can produce.

I purchased the Preciso for my boss who uses it with an Aeropress, I think it works much better as a brew grinder, but you can certainly use it for espresso. Whereas some grinders can't even be used for espresso IMO.

But, coming back home to my Strega and HG-One is still a night and day difference to me. Try to stick with your current grinder, but you may think about trying to meet up with another coffee person who has a big grinder, or sampling some good coffee shops to see if a grinder upgrade would matter to you. Some people honestly can't taste the difference starting out, and you would likely be better off to improve your technique than to spend money on a grinder. I know it's a bit contrary to popular advice around here, or even that I give out myself a lot of times, but the Preciso is really a great niche grinder.

There's been a tacit assumption that the OP may not be able to discern flavors because of early learning status. Dave, do you appreciate taste subtleties with coffee and other foods? Probably yes, because you're on this forum and spending real money on an espresso machine. You might try the better shops in your area or even buy some excellent fresh coffees and brew them with pourover, immersion or some other simple, controllable method. See if you can pick out different flavor notes. If that's the case you're more likely to benefit from a better grinder. All of this is subjective, of course. I'm just suggesting you factor that in too.

Definitely true, I didn't mean in my last post to assume the OP couldn't tell the difference, just that lots of people can't and that he should find out. IMO instead of just upgrading, since he already has the Preciso, the lowest cost way to find out would be either coffee shop method, or a meet-up with some local HBer. Always fun to have an espresso party with a local geek, gives you both an opportunity to try out each other's equipment or at least to taste espresso from different setups and see how impressed you can be. Most of us like showing off our equipment anyway and making coffee for someone else who really appreciates it.

I don't know the answer to this, but in my mind the real question is, along DRGarys thinking-lets assume that you will be able to taste a difference in the grind quality. On that note, you will also be able to taste a difference in the specific beans you are using, age and roast, the grind level and micro step changes (not mention distribution and WDT), and how those changes in microsteps affect not just he flavor itself but also how you will have have to set your pressure profiling, shot length and volume, dosing, tamping, and brew temperature, not to mention learning all of the interplay amongst those variables beyond just changes in grind but changes in one another...

That is alot of variables to work with. If you feel more comfortable financially waiting, then I say wait IF the upgrade in grinder will allow the changes in all the other variables to be measurable in the cup so that you will still be able to learn to manipulate all of the above mentioned variables.

My concern is if:

1. The grinder eliminates desirable flavors and other elements of the shot from the cup
2. Changes in the above variables will not affect those flavors or other elements since they were not present because of the grinder
3. A new grinder appears one day and now you have to relearn the machine, having wasted all of the time spent practicing originally.

I really have NO idea if thats the case. But that would be brutal if the money was not a major factor for you, and you have to relearn the machine after 6 months practicing with it. Congrats on the machine, looks like it would almost be as much fun as a lever