Ok it has been a week for me on here, reading diligently and trying to learn terminology. It seems as most people hate Super Autos and bad mouth anything that doesnt make the perfect espresso and is less than a 1000$. I understand passion, but I am just starting out. Not to mention Grad School is expensive. I like the ease of use of the Super Auto, and time saving issue. My main problem is my wife would never learn how to use a semi auto and grinder so I would be only person making drinks all the time. I would like to stop spending 10$ a day at Starbucks. I dont drink espresso that much, I like a good crema coffee or cappuccino. At this point anything would be a step up from my Hamilton Beach Brew Station. I am looking at buying a refurb, or any machine that is around 1000. Jura F7, ENA 4,5, Saeco Talea Giro. As I learn more and make more money I would love to pull my own and buy all of the components at home.

Welcome to Home Barista!

This post from a couple of weeks ago could probably answer most of your questions.

I haven't read anyone on in these forums bad-mouthing a machine just because it was under $1000. Au contraire. One of the most popular machines around, the Rancilio Silvia, is only about $600 and many people refurbish used machines that cost much, much less.

bigbirney wrote:It seems as most people hate Super Autos and bad mouth anything that doesnt make the perfect espresso and is less than a 1000$.

I answer your assertion with a question: Why would you choose mediocre espresso at comparatively great expense when exceptional coffee is easily and inexpensively available? I elaborated on this point in Love Super Auto Espresso/Coffee Maker:

HB wrote:Espresso demands attention and skill. When I'm at the office, I don't have the time, so instead I make exceptional coffee in minutes as French press or even a syphon brewer. As a Christmas gift to myself, I got a Tokio syphon brewer. Vacation is over, so I took it to the office. Cleaning it is a bit of a chore since I have to truck it to the breakroom, but the coffee preparation itself requires barely two minutes of my active attention.

French press, syphon brewer, Aeropress... any of these can easily produce memorable coffee with no fuss, no muss. When you're not pressed for time (e.g., on the weekends), make yourself an exceptional espresso or find a cafe that makes them.

Life is too short to drink mediocre espresso.

Believe me I understand all of that. I have never had great espresso then. My parents have a Jura S9 Capresso, and I love what comes out of it. With that being said I will not be the only one to use the machine, and it will brew for 3 people under our roof that all have different taste in coffee. I am just not at a point in my life where I have the time to tamp and pull my own as a rookie and get good results. Especially with what I have read about the Rancilio and its unfriendliness at times. Like I said anything is 10 steps above what I am using at home now, I dont even own a grinder, I am so ashamed.

I have a super-auto (a Jura-Capresso J5). I'm not sure if it was my answer that Roman was linking to, but I'll risk repeating myself: The super-auto has its place, IMHO, but it's a very small and cramped place.

They are extremely convenient.
They produce mediocre espresso (and somewhat better coffee crema, usually).
They are reasonably consistent, with the occasional very nice shot and the occasional (rare) sink shot.
They are absolutely not cost effective compared to a separate grinder and semi-auto.
More expensive going up a given super-auto line generally means better milk steaming, not better coffee.
They require meticulous attention to cleaning to stay at their best.
They require quality beans. (Well, any preparation method does, but the super seems to bring out the worst in bad beans. That might be my imagination though.)
They are generally hard or impossible to fix when they break. (Other than sending them away.)

The super-auto's strength (do-it-all convenience) is also its weakness (no way to improve distribution and tamp, grinders have insufficient adjustment range). You can usually tweak the machine, in the J5 case enough to move the output from blah to good-enough (YMMV), but you can't make any serious changes.

I feel that the J5 makes better morning coffee than the old Capresso grind-and-drip machine that we had. If I really want to savor a cup, though, I'll generally use the Aeropress. Someday I may get myself a grinder and semi-auto, but the J5 will remain, and will probably continue to make the morning cup. And, if I had had to pay full list price for mine, I wouldn't own one.

(note: I don't do milk drinks, so I can't comment on how good or bad the steaming on the J5 is. Milk features do vary a lot across models though.)

A third vote the aeropress which would have been my stealth weapon if it existed when I was in grad school. For coffee, it blows drip out of the water if have a good hot (HOT HOT 180-200F) water source. ~$30 for the aeropress, get a reasonable burr (not whirly blade) grinder and then invest the rest of your money mail ordering great coffee beans from a number of great artisan roasters out there. Most of the hot water coolers in schools produce hot enough water. The aeropress makes a very strong extraction full of flavor that many consider equivalent to espresso in taste...you filter the crema out so not quite.

I've actually never used a super-auto but investing in one is usually a commitment to have it repaired at some point is what I have heard from my friends that have them (I know someone who keeps 2 around to rotate while one is in the shop). Usually the semi-autos are built better. Many also can use pods which might be a quicker process than tamping and grinding etc but then freshness will limit your success.

You might also consider a separate stovetop milk steamer. I've read they work quite well and are not terribly expensive. Then, for your milk drinks, you could start with an aeropress or a Bialetta Moka (both of which will make very nice, concentrated coffee), add the steamed milk and everyone would be happy. I'm sure it would taste better than what comes out of many superautos. Not to mention more reliable. Almost everyone I know or have heard of that has a superauto has had breakdown issues within a few years.

Thanks for the info everyone. I have looked into the Aeropress, and may do that for work where they have Flavia Machine now, blecchh. I want a Super Auto for Home, just to take the next step for me, and to get my wife to give up her flavored creamers and try a decent cup of coffee. My visions of Expobar Brewtus and Mazzer Mini combo will have to wait until after law school

My company switched to a Flavia machine a few months ago. I now find that for those few times I'm in the office I drink tea rather than coffee because I can't stand what comes out of the packets.

As far as espresso goes, some friends went the super-auto route before I went down the espresso path. They like the convenience but all of the coffee I've had from it (they use Lavazza beans) have been lackluster compared to what I've had at even the most mundane cafes. I chose a double boiler (S1VII) as my first machine because I wanted some stability and also to forestall upgraditis (although a paddle GS3 is really enticing) for quite a while.

As far as quality vs ease of use, I can only state that within the realm of good, fast (easy), and cheap; only two can be selected. A very expensive super-auto can make decent espresso drinks but they tend to be well outside the realm of most consumers; often more than the cost of a high end prosumer semi- or full-automatic such as the GS3. The lowe-priced super-autos tend to make just mediocre drinks.

That being said, if one's palate can't tell the difference and/or doesn't matter, a super-auto could be a path to consistent drinks. I, however, think most of us here are striving for methods of extracting the best shot out of the beans possible so we all tend to shy away from the super autos since they take control out of our hands.

I have no problem with Super Autos. They work great, and the resulting drink is fine for 95+% of the people we encounter at our store. I've seen a lot of hyperbole about how mediocre/bad the drinks are, and frankly it's a bit much. I've never seen people spit it out or complain.

When we offer samples, many people genuinely like the drinks, and definitely appreciate the convenience super autos offer. They do balk at the price tags however.

Check out this link to an article on the Coffeegeek site, there is a super auto from Krups you may like: http://www.coffeegeek.com/opinions/coff...12-10-2009

One part of this equation that does not often get mentioned is your palate. What some on this site find unacceptable, you may actually enjoy. I say find out for yourself what is good or not. Some brands of super autos are demoed at stores like Williams-Sonoma, Sur La Table, and perhaps also Bloomingdales (not certain).

There are sites that offer refurbs of super autos, and you can save some $$ that way. Ask about the warranty.

Exactly. Just go to a store that demos them, and see if you like the taste.

weasel wrote:What some on this site find unacceptable, you may actually enjoy. I say find out for yourself what is good or not.

That's certainly true.

When I travel, I bring a hand grinder and French press; the coffee is excellent. I would rather drink a diet Coke or tea than free conference swill brew, but I recognize that I'm in a tiny minority. Dozens of attendees will line up for the "proudly served" coffee and nobody complains. Of course most dump in three creams and two sugars to make it palatable, so I wouldn't consider the absence of complaints a testament to the quality of the brew.

As a sanity check, I always try some, but invariably the results are the same: Underextracted, ashy dull cardboard with vague coffee flavor. Bleech.

weasel wrote:I have no problem with Super Autos. They work great, and the resulting drink is fine for 95+% of the people we encounter at our store. I've seen a lot of hyperbole about how mediocre/bad the drinks are, and frankly it's a bit much. I've never seen people spit it out or complain.

It's not hyperbole IMO. People on Home Barista and the 95% that are happy with super autos that you encounter are 2 entirely different groups with different preferences/tastes/budgets/experiences. Any group of enthusiasts is going to be picky when it comes to whatever they're enthusiastic about. It's all about what each individual prefers. It's not hyperbole that I don't find the product of any superauto that I've tried to be more than mediocre at best. YMMV, of course.

I see exactly the same sort of thing with the car clubs that I belong to. If you enjoy performance driving, a Toyota Camry isn't going to cut it even though it's a great reliable car.

bigbirney wrote: I understand passion ... My main problem is my wife ...

You would probably be content with one of these:

http://www.illy.com/wps/wcm/connect/us/...-ese-pods/

Mediocre espresso doesn't have to cost $1000.

takeshi wrote:It's not hyperbole IMO.

I fully agree that not all criticisms are hyperbole, and 'mediocre' is a fair assessment by the aficionados on this site. But I have seen some negative comments that are excessive, and out of touch with a typical coffee/espresso drinker. I think this is a disservice to those who ask about super autos.

Thanks everyone. I went to Williams Sonoma today and played around with a few. You guys have been very helpful. I will keep reading and learning.

What's wrong with super-autos? The whole approach, I would say.

People on HB seem to like to talk about the potential of super-autos if, say, one were operated by a home barista. That is, someone who tunes the machine to brew the coffee correctly, feeds it proper water and decent coffee, keeps it clean, and gives it whatever maintenance it needs. But the whole focus of the design of these things is to appeal to people who don't know how to and don't seem to want to know how to do all that. So my hypothesis based on my limited experience with super-autos is that HBers give super-autos a lot more credit than they deserve when we talk about what they're capable of in a best-case scenario.

I understand that this forum is a community with a diverse array of opinion, and this thread is certainly an example of that, but at the same time, it seems that this community is and should be rooted around leading people to/educating people about exceptional espresso and how to get it. And I don't think anyone in the know would argue that Super-autos are counter to this goal in a big way, being a step towards (at best) mediocre espresso. So, as an insider, it seems strange to have new people come and ask about super-autos here, particularly when they start asking our opinions on specific models. It just reads to me like someone asking a question about Windows (e.g., should I buy Windows 7 Home Starter or Windows 7 Home Premium?) on an Ubuntu forum. You'll probably find a few people who can kind of help you, but it's still weird.

peacecup wrote:Exactly. Just go to a store that demos them, and see if you like the taste.

But beware ... most retail stores that I know of that carry super-auto's have no clue about coffee bean freshness. Take your own beans, and run 2 or 3 cups to flush out the store garbage first. Then, form your opinion.

shadowfax wrote:...So my hypothesis based on my limited experience with super-autos is that HBers give super-autos a lot more credit than they deserve when we talk about what they're capable of in a best-case scenario...

Not quite sure what you mean, but I think we probably agree, in the sense that most super-auto users are happy that their machine turns out better-than-dreck while everyone else is drinking dreck. My reply wasn't aimed at the typical super-auto owner, whoever that might be anyway; I was trying to describe what one might expect from a super-auto machine, given excellent coffee in and reasonable attention to detail and cleaning. I.e., best case. I enjoy my J5 and would do it again (for the same price!), but I went into it with eyes wide open and knowing its limitations. (Plus, I am fortunate enough to be at a point where I need not count pennies, for a change...) I would agree that a true "home barista" might want to move past the super-auto limitations, and indeed I would like to do so myself when time, money, and kitchen space permits. In the meantime, via careful use of the J5, I'm drinking better coffee than most people. (which is a low enough bar, but there you go.)