bigbirney wrote:Although my parents S9 with some good Illy beans produces a pretty good shot, better than I can buy in most places.

mdmvrockford wrote:"Most places," like Starbucks? or the donut shop pulling shots? Or better than most "serious" cafés? (Again, that's sort of like "HB-land" versus the "world-at-large.")

This is my point. Many newbies that come here dont even have access to a good shot. Starbucks is all they know. I have yet to find a place in Dallas that serves a good shot, It was worse when I lived in Nebraska. Many of the posts are from Europeans, People of the Pacific Northwest, or NYC and other east coast cities where coffee is a different way of life.

Either way I have learned a lot, and Coffee geek is probably more my speed

Uh, Eric? I'm pretty sure that I (Jason), and not Michael, said . . .

zin1953 wrote:"Most places," like Starbucks? or the donut shop pulling shots? Or better than most "serious" cafés? (Again, that's sort of like "HB-land" versus the "world-at-large.")

Be that as it may,

bigbirney wrote:This is my point. Many newbies that come here dont even have access to a good shot. Starbucks is all they know.

No, that's my point, Eric, and why many of us attempt to educate as well as advise, and why I never lose sight of the fact that there ARE people out there who enjoy Maxwell House, or who think Starbucks is truly great, and know no better -- or have access to no better (or don't know they have access to better, take your pick).

bigbirney wrote:Many of the posts are from Europeans, People of the Pacific Northwest, or NYC and other east coast cities where coffee is a different way of life.

Or -- gee -- in California . . .

bigbirney wrote:Either way I have learned a lot, and Coffee geek is probably more my speed

Trust me: same "issues" there.

Cheers,
Jason

I hate to wade in here, but I think that most of the posters that are bashing ALL super-autos are not very well informed. I own both a highly regarded semi-auto (the Oscar) and one of the best grinders available (La Cimbali Jr.), as well the super-auto Jura Z5. I am very sensitive to mediocre espresso and will not drink anything other than a 9+ shot.

With that in mind, I would like to point at that at the high end (Jura Z5/Z6), and very high end (cimbali M2, astra 2000), a super auto will produce a shot that is very good (Jura Z5/Z6) to excellent (Cimbali, Astra). A high end machine like the Cimbali will produce a better shot than most home baristas. Anyone who says otherwise has not spent time (not just tried a random shot somewhere) with a high end auto.

Here are my comments as someone who owns and uses both types of machines:

1) Inexpensive super autos are not worth the cost of shipping. The least expensive super auto that I could find that makes very good espresso is the Jura Z5 (about $3K as I recall). That isn't cheap, and I went through 3 other machines (Saeco, Gaggia, and and older model Capresso) that all produced horrible espresso before I finally found the Z5. So I can understand why folks might believe all super autos are bad. As someone else said, you do a lot better with a french press than with the cheaper machines.

2) The only good reason to get a super auto is where you have a location (like my office) where it is not feasible to have a bang box, grinder and sink. However, if you are looking for an espresso machine for such a location, and you love espresso, you will need to spend money to get a good one. Settling for a mediocre unit does not make sense and you will only find yourself not using the machine and walking to the nearest espresso shop every day. A possible second reason to buy a super auto is size - if you cannot fit a bang box, grinder and semi auto in your kitchen, a super auto like the Z5/Z6 might be a good choice too.

3) I would not buy a super auto because they are "easier to use." Learning how to properly grind, tamp and pull a shot is not that hard and gets a lot easier with experience with a particular machine; its not worth the extra money just to have a machine do this for you.

4) The high end super autos are NOT all that easy to use anyway. Just like using a semi-auto, a programmable super auto takes a lot of trial and error to get the water temp, grind, water quantity, and brew strength right. However, once you get it right, it will work again and again without further work. The super autos have a much easier to use cleaning system too (one button backflush). Again, this is best for an office type environment, but don't think its trouble free.

5) The Z5 will pull shots that are very good if not excellent. There is a perfect amount of mottling in the crema, and the shots are full bodied and rich. It never makes a bad shot either (once set up properly). It is true that I can make a better shot with my La Cimbali Jr and Oscar - BUT consider that if I pull 10 shots in a row on my Oscar (it is a hx machine, so 10 shots in a row is no great trick for the unit), I will probably discard 1-2 of those shots as subpar, and 2-3 will be "god shots" that could never be produced on the Z5. The other 5-7 shots would be about equal to the Z5.

6) The super autos do seem to be more sensitive to the specific type of coffee used. Right now, I am using Black Cat and it works great in the Z5. I have tried several other espresso beans without luck.

jsnorman wrote:The super autos have a much easier to use cleaning system too (one button backflush).

http://www.koffiepraat.nl/forum/viewtop...=10&t=1561
I beg to differ.

This was nothing unusual according to the mechanic.
He also noted that the cleaning button doesn't work against the shown mold buildup.

AND, who here said that COMMERCIAL superautos are in the same league as consumer superautos?

This thread is still going?