Yes, but think of it this way: someone on staff knows maintenance; customers push a button. OTOH, the ideal is rarely reality . . .

The best I have seen in a corporate environment was at Google. They did have a Mazzer mini on site with a semi auto, but they still had over roasted two week old beans there.

I am not faulting them, this was half way up the Columbia river gourge. Which is at least a good day from any good roaster. But they were trying. And is was a far cry from any other coffee I have seen in other work places.

Just that much is 10 times better than I have seen elsewhere.

-Cecil

P.S. I am sure they have better on the campus, but I would still bet they were roasted darker than most of us would like.

-C

IMO, teaching people about great coffee, cannot start when they are ready to buy a superautomatic machine. Because, by that time, they have already been drinking stale coffee for years, and what they buy at starbucks is some of the best coffee they've ever had.

It has to start with the beans. Until people understand that coffee is 100% JUST LIKE every other agricultural product in the world, we are just spinning our wheels, so to speak.

Every single American KNOWS, that when you buy fruits and vegetables, you eat them right away. They do not last indefinitely. Yet, they think coffee never goes bad, and is always the same. Why? Well, I assume it is because, for their entire lives(however long that may be), not one single person has said otherwise. Everywhere you go, be it the Gas Station, the SuperMarket, the FastFood Place, the Airport, the TrainStation, the Bars, the Mall.. Everywhere you go, serves coffee. These places, at least half of them sell already ground coffee, and not ONE of these places tells anyone(because they dont know either) about the importance of Freshness. And, even if ONE person or place ended up being run/owned/etc by someone who does try to teach others about the importance of freshness... Every OTHER place they go, the coffee tastes the same.

So, you've got these people, who have NO CLUE about real coffee, and have had this poor information indirectly drilled into them for their entire lives that "coffee is coffee", who come onto some random website they found by doing a google search of "Best Espresso Maker", and the website is filled with people whom, for all they know are out of their freakin minds, telling them that absolutely EVERYTHING they think know about coffee is FLAT OUT WRONG, that they're doing nothing but blindly wasting they're money, and what they have been enjoying their entire lives, is despicable, undrinkable swill.. Well.. I think it's safe to say, we're spinning our wheels with 99% of these folks.

The only way people are going to learn the proper information about coffee and how it should be treated, is if the idea of Culinary Coffee becomes mainstream. As long as Folgers and Maxwell House is sold, and bought in every supermarket in America, then coffee being treated as the Agricultural Product that it is, is unlikely to happen.

The people who signed onto this website, asked a question about which superautomatic espresso maker to buy, got the answers we always give, and then are never seen or heard from again after two posts... Where do you think they went? To the first E-Tailor they could find who sold superautomatics, read some reviews, and bought one. They'll fill them with Starbucks beans, they'll never clean them, and 'round and 'round we go.

I agree completely with what "JmanEspresso" posted.

I am a HB newbie. I have owned a super-auto (I was aware it was suboptimal but read my post for background).

As a HB newbie even I am getting tired of seeing the same question posted repeatedly. These people do not realize that almost by definition you are NOT a barista if you are using a super-auto.

My suggestions to help all future superauto questions are:
(1) forum moderator or Dan post superauto FAQ heading with link to threads like this one
(2) polite standard reply by HB member stating for example: Thank you for joining HB. Please look at our wealth of information under the FAQ. Two suggestions for you are: (1) "super auto" or whatever the heading may be called; (2) link to Dan Kehn's post of the four M's (with bean, barista and grinder being by far the most important elements).

This may help cut down on the "noise" using the audio signal to noise ratio analogy.

I think I know good espresso and how to make one but when I travel I can't carry my machine and grinder with me. I take along my Nespresso Citiz Milk, use three capsules of acceptable coffee and make myself a large cappuccino at 4-5 AM in the morning to sip on. Granted it is not as good as what I can make at home but it is better than I can find at a Starbucks, that is if I could find one foolish enough to be awake at that time in the morning. Again, it's not a pro machine but it fits the needs in this situation. If I still worked, which I am glad I don't, I would take it to work with me and wouldn't be the least bit ashamed to admit it. Perhaps I should look at a TWIST but I would probably end up dropping it on my bare feet at that time of the morning.

I spent a long time looking at Jura's. Glad I was talked out of it on this forum and haven't looked back since. I love my espresso setup and I like the Nespresso but gladly I don't have to use it very often.

Danger! Danger! Warning, Will Robinson: Thread Drift Approaching!

Jeff, two things here . . .

JmanEspresso wrote:Every single American KNOWS, that when you buy fruits and vegetables, you eat them right away. They do not last indefinitely.

1) Let's keep in mind that, while tastes (and trends) in America are indeed changing, companies like Birdseye and Green Giant still sell millions of dollars' worth of frozen vegetables every year, and it wasn't all that long ago when "Farmer's Markets" didn't exist and frozen was the norm . . .

But more importantly, let's talk semantics:

JmanEspresso wrote:Yet, they think coffee never goes bad, and is always the same. Why?

Actually I think part of the problem here is terminology. We speak of "coffee beans," and beans are dried and they last forever; you just soak them in water and cook 'em. Well, we here know that coffee "beans" aren't beans at all, but the seeds of the fruit of the coffee plant. Yet they are "beans"; they are dry (not fresh); and when you soak 'em in water . . . .

Further, as you rightly say, coffee IS everywhere and -- again -- pre-ground cans of Maxwell House, Folgers, and all those other brands not only remain firmly planted on store shelves but in the consciousness of many of us from when we were growing up and watching our parents drink coffee. Sure, in supermarkets these may be getting crowded out to some extent in the last, say, 10-20 years but a) they are still there, and b) look at what they are being replaced with: pre-ground cans (or bags) of Lavazza, Illy, and the like; open bins of beans you fill, and perhaps grind, yourself (and how stale are those?!?); bags of whole beans from Starbucks (or other brand) with a "Best Buy" date of 12 months from now; and so on and so on . . .

Everywhere the average American consumer of coffee -- not the coffee geek or the home barista -- looks, he or she sees signs that coffee in "indestructible."

And then here "we" come saying, don't grind it until you use it, and get it fresh, and whatever . . .

C'est la vie . . . It can be a lot for someone to swallow all at once.

Cheers,
Jason

JmanEspresso wrote:IMO, teaching people about great coffee, cannot start when they are ready to buy a superautomatic machine. Because, by that time, they have already been drinking stale coffee for years, and what they buy at starbucks is some of the best coffee they've ever had.

It has to start with the beans. Until people understand that coffee is 100% JUST LIKE every other agricultural product in the world, we are just spinning our wheels, so to speak.

Every single American KNOWS, that when you buy fruits and vegetables, you eat them right away. They do not last indefinitely. Yet, they think coffee never goes bad, and is always the same. Why? Well, I assume it is because, for their entire lives(however long that may be), not one single person has said otherwise. Everywhere you go, be it the Gas Station, the SuperMarket, the FastFood Place, the Airport, the TrainStation, the Bars, the Mall.. Everywhere you go, serves coffee. These places, at least half of them sell already ground coffee, and not ONE of these places tells anyone(because they dont know either) about the importance of Freshness. And, even if ONE person or place ended up being run/owned/etc by someone who does try to teach others about the importance of freshness... Every OTHER place they go, the coffee tastes the same.

So, you've got these people, who have NO CLUE about real coffee, and have had this poor information indirectly drilled into them for their entire lives that "coffee is coffee", who come onto some random website they found by doing a google search of "Best Espresso Maker", and the website is filled with people whom, for all they know are out of their freakin minds, telling them that absolutely EVERYTHING they think know about coffee is FLAT OUT WRONG, that they're doing nothing but blindly wasting they're money, and what they have been enjoying their entire lives, is despicable, undrinkable swill.. Well.. I think it's safe to say, we're spinning our wheels with 99% of these folks.

The only way people are going to learn the proper information about coffee and how it should be treated, is if the idea of Culinary Coffee becomes mainstream. As long as Folgers and Maxwell House is sold, and bought in every supermarket in America, then coffee being treated as the Agricultural Product that it is, is unlikely to happen.

The people who signed onto this website, asked a question about which superautomatic espresso maker to buy, got the answers we always give, and then are never seen or heard from again after two posts... Where do you think they went? To the first E-Tailor they could find who sold superautomatics, read some reviews, and bought one. They'll fill them with Starbucks beans, they'll never clean them, and 'round and 'round we go.

This should have been posted in the scaring newbies away section, and not in my thread, but everyone is entitled to their .02. First of all the idea that coffee only basically encompasses store bought Maxwell house grind and Home Baristas with 2000 setup and fresh flown in beans is ignorance to say the least, and that people who dont go full tilt right away shouldnt use the site, or disappear. This is like saying its either Mcdonalds Double Cheeseburger or DB's Double Truffle burger at $175, are your only options for burgers with nothing in between.

Anyone that knows coffee really knows that fresh roasted beans, ground before use are better than any pre-ground, even in a drip coffee maker. I spent 2 weeks in Jamaica watching idiots spend $60-80 dollars a pound for Blue Mountain Coffee thats been on the gift shop shelf for 3 months.

The problem is it seems many posters dont really read all of the posts, and just post, based on the title, or skimming a few lines. I never claimed to know much, but I know that good beans in a Jura are 100x better than any drip, and many other methods, especially for just a good cup of crema coffee. I am not talking about espresso. Although my parents S9 with some good Illy beans produces a pretty good shot, better than I can buy in most places. For me its all about learning, and just because I am looking at Super Auto at this stage in my life( ie. cost, convenience), doesnt mean I cant or wont contribute to this site now or in the future.

bigbirney wrote:I never claimed to know much, but I know that good beans in a Jura are 100x better than any drip, and many other methods, especially for just a good cup of crema coffee.

I violently disagree.

Also, you act like there is a middle ground between good and bad coffee.
There isn't. You either care and make good coffee or don't care and make bad coffee. There is no prohibitive difference in price or effort. Good coffee costs as much as cheap beer. A decent grinder for most methods costs $100. A French Press adds $30 to that budget. Information on how to make good coffee is free to find here. Only add hot water.

Good espresso however is a whole different story.

Eric,
I did read your original post and not just the last few threads. Unfortunately my internet connection died so I lost my message I was composing. In the interim Bluecold post noted and I agree with what he wrote.

If I sound condescending in this post, this is not my intention.

Please see my other post Love Super Auto Espresso/Coffee Maker for some background that may apply to you and your wife. You will not get good espresso from any home super-auto or for that matter any superauto <$10K.

If your goal (as it seems from the original post) is just super-easy cappuccino and milk based drinks your wife can make at button push AND she truely does not care about microfoam/sweetness of milk/espresso then you are asking the question in the wrong forum. I would post the question in coffeegeek.com

As stated in my other post, I owned a super-auto before. I have been reading this forum since Summer 2006 (after I bought the super-auto) but I never posted in this forum until I bought my semi-automatic last month. I could tell from the tone of the posts this is not the place to ask super-auto questions. As my post above states, almost by definition you are not a barista if you are using a super-auto. The title of the forum and its secondary title hint at this too.

I think your best solution for your budget has partially been answered in one of your other posts in Scaring newbies away!!! Get (used) Rancilio Silvia. To this I would suggest good condition used Rancilio Rocky (make sure to buy new burrs <$50). Always use fresh roasted bean and your wife will be converted.

My wife certainly did. She's only said it once (and I will not let her forget the date and time), but she cannot believe the quality difference in milk taste, texture etc and cappuccino taste now versus when we had the superauto. I find even the cafe crema from the current semi-auto much better than from prior super auto. And keep in mind I still am using same Rocky grinder for both machines (until I can find me a Mazzer Super Jolly). For the superauto I would place ground beans in bypass doser.

But if you are still intent on the home superauto you are in the wrong forum.

ANALOGY:
I love cars. I used to think my heavily-modified 92' Honda Civic's handling would rival any BMW 3 series. But I never posted my thoughts on European car forums. Now fast forward to present and having driven many European sports cars (e.g. BMW M3, Porsche 911, Cayman S (including on track)), you can't even compare. Eric, I feel you are trying to ask to modified Honda Civic questions on a European sports car page filled with semipro to pro drivers. (as for me I am definitely early semi-pro).

Again if I sound condescending in this post, this is not my intention.

Good luck Eric.

bigbirney wrote:First of all the idea that coffee only basically encompasses store bought Maxwell house grind and Home Baristas with 2000 setup and fresh flown in beans is ignorance to say the least, and that people who dont go full tilt right away shouldnt use the site, or disappear.

Eric, that's nonsense. No one has said anything even remotely resembling that.

bigbirney wrote:Anyone that knows coffee really knows that fresh roasted beans, ground before use are better than any pre-ground, even in a drip coffee maker. I spent 2 weeks in Jamaica watching idiots spend $60-80 dollars a pound for Blue Mountain Coffee thats been on the gift shop shelf for 3 months.

Uh, Eric? If anyone knows that coffee is better with freshly roasted beans, freshly ground, then how do you explain those "idiots"? Now, I grant you that to come to a site like this means there is a definite interest in coffee, but we do not always differentiate between "HB-land" and the world-at-large.

bigbirney wrote:I never claimed to know much, but I know that good beans in a Jura are 100x better than any drip, and many other methods, especially for just a good cup of crema coffee. I am not talking about espresso.

No, Eric. Good beans in a Jura are 100x better than bad beans in a Jura. (And let's leave "great" or "excellent" out of this discussion for a moment.) But then, good beans in a Chemex are 100x better than bad beans in a Chemex; just as good beans in a French press are 100x better than bad beans in a French press, or good vs. bad beans in an espresso machine, and so on and so on. The difference lies in the quality of the preparation. Each preparation has its own nuances and subtleties. Espresso is different -- not better or worse, just different -- than other methods of preparation.

bigbirney wrote:Although my parents S9 with some good Illy beans produces a pretty good shot, better than I can buy in most places.

"Most places," like Starbucks? or the donut shop pulling shots? Or better than most "serious" cafés? (Again, that's sort of like "HB-land" versus the "world-at-large.")

bigbirney wrote:For me its all about learning, and just because I am looking at Super Auto at this stage in my life( ie. cost, convenience), doesnt mean I cant or wont contribute to this site now or in the future.

And who is saying that you cannot or should not contribute?

Cheers,
Jason