Hi Jason, I'm at SLT, where we hand out a fair amount of 'coffee' samples, and demo various machines.

...also, thanks Dan for fixing my 'quote' (prior post)

weasel wrote:I have no problem with Super Autos. They work great, and the resulting drink is fine for 95+% of the people we encounter at our store....I've never seen people spit it out or complain.

In your opinion, is there a significant flavor difference between a superauto costing $2000 and a $400 FrancisFrancis machine that uses pods? Would your customers spit out an espresso produced by the FrancisFrancis?

weasel wrote:Hi Jason, I'm at SLT, where we hand out a fair amount of 'coffee' samples, and demo various machines.

Thanks, Jim, for the explanation. As I said, I've never spit out a shot at SLT, nor told anyone Yuck! That's $#!+ -- but I try to be more polite than that.

Then, of course, the reality is the shots are not $#!+; not really. But neither are they as good as what I could to make on my old Gaggia, never as good as what I make on my Elektra, and, I dare say, not as good as what you make on your Silvia. If the shots were truly horrible, then it wouldn't be the proverbial trade-off between convenience and quality, it would be "good/great" versus "bad/horrible." It's not like that. Rather, I think that Dan Kehn has put it best: why settle for mediocrity?

Of course we settle for it all the time, be it instant pudding, pasta sauce in a jar, tea bags (rather than loose leaf), Starbucks, and so on. The relatively little time it takes to make truly excellent coffee/espresso is certainly worth it to me, and I dare say the majority of people here. For others, the convenience of a super auto may be worthwhile . . .

C'est la vie.

Cheers,
Jason

zin1953 wrote:it would be "good/great" versus "bad/horrible." It's not like that. Rather, I think that Dan Kehn has put it best: why settle for mediocrity?

..and that is what I mean that the drinks aren't 'bad'. I understand that here, the HB'ers want bang for buck in terms of quality, and that super autos don't provide as rich an extraction for the money, etc. Then again not everyone wants that rich extraction or micro foam. (think of how many people still visit Starbucks)

'why settle'? Convenience, a lot of people want this. Take up less counter space. Less mess. Adaptability, more than one person usually wants a drink and the 'barista' isn't always available.....push da button. Also, usually less noisy. Easier learning curve. Most people do not want to 'learn' and many machines have come back because 'it didn't work right'.

timo888 wrote:In your opinion, is there a signficant flavor difference between a superauto costing $2000 and a $400 FrancisFrancis machine that uses pods?Would your customers spit out an espresso produced by the FrancisFrancis?

Actually, yes there is a significant difference. We usually use Illy med roast in the Jura's, and we would demo the FF X6 with Illy med roast e.s.e. pods. The pods tasted harsh. I tried a cooling flush, preheating, not preheating, nothing I did helped. Was it the pods, or perhaps too much pressure? Not sure, in the end few X6's sold. Did customers spit it out? No, nor did they compliment or buy the machine, their interest quickly waned. Nespresso otoh, very successful.

For what it's worth FF's newer line of Iper capsules/machines are much better than their pod machines.

weasel wrote:'why settle'? Convenience, a lot of people want this. Take up less counter space. Less mess. Adaptability, more than one person usually wants a drink and the 'barista' isn't always available.....push da button. Also, usually less noisy. Easier learning curve. Most people do not want to 'learn' and many machines have come back because 'it didn't work right'.

This is exactly where I am at.
Right now we have a Hamilton Beach Brew Station and use ground flavored beans, insert laughs here, i.e. Millstone, Starbucks. Not to mention 4 flavors of creamer in the fridge. Its all I can do not to run to the Flavia Machine at work that isnt much better. This is a giant leap on upgrade as is.
Now my wife isnt the kitchen cooking homemaker type. I married the sports loving, beer drinking, cool girl that doesnt know her way around appliances. I will take the trade off any day. The push button I can sell her on and still get a good cup of crema coffee, make a latte, or decent shot of espresso. Maybe I can expand her mind more down the road.

bigbirney wrote:Now my wife isnt the kitchen cooking homemaker type. I married the sports loving, beer drinking, cool girl that doesnt know her way around appliances. I will take the trade off any day.

I don't know, Eric. It sounds to me like you didn't "take the trade off," but rather chose to keep quality and sacrificed convenience . . . .

Well, I do have a DeLonghi ESAM 3100, but the coffee is incomparable to tha one that I get from my Promac+mazzer.

weasel wrote:'why settle' [for mediocrity]? Convenience, a lot of people want this.

The question I asked wasn't about the convenience of super-automatics. My question remains unanswered:

Why would you choose mediocre espresso at great expense when other convenient, less costly methods for preparing exceptional brewed coffee exist?

I think the answer, for many, is that they don't know what exceptional coffee tastes like. These people conflate the preparation method and the drink itself. As I documented in Hall of Shame, at one time I insisted on espresso because I (wrongly) believed it was intrinsically superior, largely thanks to the Starbucks hype machine. To my later regret, this led me to ignore simple, inexpensive, idiot-proof methods of coffee preparation for years in pursuit of mediocre espresso.

weasel wrote:..and that is what I mean that the drinks aren't 'bad'. I understand that here, the HB'ers want bang for buck in terms of quality, and that super autos don't provide as rich an extraction for the money, etc. Then again not everyone wants that rich extraction or micro foam. (think of how many people still visit Starbucks)

And think of how many people visit McDonald's, too . . .

The difference is no one is pretending that McDonald's makes an outstanding burger. Clearly one can easily do much better at home.

When it comes to Starbuck's and the average North American (at least), drinks with names like "espresso," "cappuccino," latte," and even "macchiato" (let alone "frappuccino") not only seem complicated -- they sound "gourmet," and gourmet food is expensive, complicated, and impossible to make at home!

I would respectfully submit that it's a question of 1) not knowing how relatively easy it is to make true espresso drinks at home, and 2) not truly knowing what good coffee actually is. The latter is far more important, and a far more difficult hurdle to overcome. After all, we are still a country/continent when brands like Folger's and Maxwell House dominate, and people who want to "take a step up" all too often buy stale beans with brand names like Starbucks, Dunkin' Donuts and the like from grocery stores -- or worse, from those self-serve bins!

People know what a good burger is, and McDonald's suffers by comparison. The majority of the population don't necessarily know what good coffee is, and thus Starbucks does not suffer in comparison. (That changes, of course, among people who "know" coffee -- look at people who are "into" coffee enough to come to sites like this, and you can see a significant difference in the opinion of Starbucks versus the general population.)

And there is a third, and I think crucial, point: truly excellent prosumer semi-autos are not available in most stores for consumers to see, demo, and purchase. Instead, while it's the rare Williams-Sonoma that may have an Elektra MCal on display, WS, SLT, Macy's and the like all have super-autos or Brevilles . . . it takes a certain leap of faith to purchase a $1-2K semi without ever having seen, touched, or used it in person.

Cheers,
Jason

zin1953 wrote:
And there is a third, and I think crucial, point: truly excellent prosumer semi-autos are not available in most stores for consumers to see, demo, and purchase. Instead, while it's the rare Williams-Sonoma that may have an Elektra MCal on display, WS, SLT, Macy's and the like all have super-autos or Brevilles . . . it takes a certain leap of faith to purchase a $1-2K semi without ever having seen, touched, or used it in person.

Cheers,
Jason

This is another point I have. Someone who is already timid of a semi auto like myself does not have a forum to play with the machines. This coupled with overabundance of threads pro and against many machines. The supposed best bang for the buck semi-auto Rancilio-Silvia is said to be difficult for beginners and easy to destroy coffee. Why would I spend $1000 on grinder and machine and waste 100's of dollars in good beans trying to make it right, and being the only person in the house that can make a cup.