My problem is I don't upgrade, I add. I never sell the old stuff, it just accumulates in the basement!

Great points. What is the real difference? The burrs are practically the same, save the size. If I had to guess, I wouldn't have thought the SJ was even a close 2nd to the Robur, as the Robur has a conical burr.

Any idea?

For the record, I didn't think the Mini was even remotely close to the Robur, while the SJ was. However, the other Titan reviewers thought the SJ was just as good as any of the big conicals, and on that I disagree; to me the Cimbali Max and all the commercial conicals were a slight but definite step up from the SJ. I advise a buyer with that budget level to go with the Ebay SJ rather than a new or Ebay Mini.

I moved from an endless chain of bad grinders and $200 home machines to an SL70 & Innova conical, then a Tea and Mini, now a Semi and Compak. I'd recommend any of these setups (although a used SJ is better idea than the Mini). There were detours through Solis, Isomac, and Versalab grinders, none of which I'd recommend. More controversially, a recent stint with a PIDed pair of Silvias as a two group test machine left me much colder than I expected. The Silvia gives shots with the body of a commercial espresso machine, but with very poor taste clarity, worse than many other home machines. I would not recommend it as a starter machine for people primarily interested in coffee taste. I'd spend the extra few hundred and go straight to an Expobar, Bezzera, or Oscar as a starter machine.

But the main thing that sticks out is that low end equipment either makes it impossible or very difficult to get the nuances of a coffee or to work the taste. So I would advise either going cheap for people who are not sure they are interested in this, or budgeting for commercial gear for those who do.

A consistent 1 point was a huge difference in this competition, since it had WBC style, 0 to 6, scoring, with taste points multiplied by 4. Most of the grinders won or lost by 1 or 1/2 point in just one of the two rounds at each weight, when they performed consistently. The inconsistent grinders always got clobbered in one round. Iirc, this happened to all the non-commercial grinders, including the Versalab. The full commercial Mini did not perform inconsistently, but it did perform consistently worse.

another_jim wrote:However, the other Titan reviewers thought the SJ was just as good as any of the big conicals, and on that I disagree; to me the Cimbali Max and all the commercial conicals were a slight but definite step up from the SJ.

At least one of the TGP reviewers (me) would also disagree. I didn't think any of the other grinders came close to beating the Robur. There did seem to be consensus that conical burrs were more forgiving/easier to dial in/had a larger sweet spot than planar burrs. But I thought the SJ held up quite well in this impressive lineup, and I preferred the SJ taste profile to at least one of the Titan conicals.

Upgraditis is a terminal disease for folks like me, although fortunately not a fatal one. In my case, much of it is driven by curiosity. For example, I'd enjoy owning a PID'd espresso machine at some point, just to experiment with more reproducible brew temps. But I also realize that, above a certain level of gear, the improvements are marginal. I reached that level a couple of years ago with the SJ and the Vetrano.

question for Jim and John (or others who have compared)

what about the Kony ?
since I have a mini now and am looking to upgrade my grinder from my Mini

my pasquini and mini were a great pair but now that I have the Elektra I noticed a huge jump in my shots and am curious if I can squeeze a bit more out of my Elektra A3 with a grinder



I think my upgraditis has been a great step every time and going from a Krupps back in the 80s to a Estro Profi to a Pasquini to now my Elektra A3 each step has been worth it
now the grinder upgrade starts

while I suffer
its a pain I am worth living with and lucky my wife allows it

so the question is whats after my Elektra A3 in about 5 years

I knew this was going to get nasty and good!

RapidCoffee wrote:
Upgraditis is a terminal disease for folks like me, although fortunately not a fatal one.

How can it be both "terminal" and "not fatal" at the same time?

Most of my upgraditis was cured with my Vivaldi II. Sure could use a better grinder, though.

Bushrod wrote:How can it be both "terminal" and "not fatal" at the same time?

Many diseases are terminal but not fatal (life itself is a notable exception). Thus far my obsession ahem, passion for coffee hasn't killed me, and probably never will. But it's likely to be with me for the foreseeable future, along with equipment-related upgraditis. All part of the fun.

Honu wrote:what about the Kony ? since I have a mini now and am looking to upgrade my grinder

The Kony got the rep of being the "bright" grinder, with a more acidic taste profile than the others. I noticed this on some coffees, but not others. Despite the 62mm burrs, the Kony is a large grinder, larger than the 68mm Macap, and as large as the 68mm Fiorenzato or Compak. If you are looking for a more reasonable size, the Cimbali or small Macap conical are good. If you want ultra-consistency, the Robur or the 68mm conicals are the ticket.

Of the 68mm ones I tested (the others did not try these), the big Macap is underpowered enough to have a noisy, labored startup, but it has the best price. Judging by my comparisions and the parts lists at espresso supply houses, the 68mm conicals all have the same burr set, and this includes 4 or 5 models I didn't test. So if you are patient, you might find one at a bargain on Ebay. Otherwise, you might negotiate with the several vendors. I have no idea if there's any breaks on the Robur.

Mahalos for the reply

Gaggia Classic --> ECM Giotto --> GS/3
Gaggia MDF --> Pasquini Moka --> Mazzer Mini --> Versalab M3

I'm done.

I have been lucky enough to have quite a few bits of kit pass through my hands. Allow me to make a few very broad generalizations. Espresso machines, you tend to get a relatively significant change in the cup and ease of use as you progress from the $500 range machine to the $1800 range. Once you enter that prosumer $1500-$2000 range your next upgrade will be quite large in cost but small in cup improvement. While using gear in that prosumer range, a grinder upgrade will get you more bang for the buck than another machine upgrade. Jumping from something like a Rocky or Mini to something like a Super Jolly, Max, Robur, Major, etc will get you a noticeable upgrade in the cup.

The next step will be out of the prosumer world and into the realm of single group commercial machines. That jump will take you from the $1800 machine into the $4000-7000 range. When most people make that commitment they already know what they like, what features they want and have a pretty sound understanding of the espresso art. That large jump does not equal the same kind of cup improvement you get when going from the $500 to $1800 class. What you are purchasing is a much smaller cup improvement but a quantum leap in convenience and repeatability. Long gone are the temperature surfing, milk steaming voodoo requiring rituals of the other machines. These guys will bang out the same cup quality shot all day long and do it with some relatively modest barista skills.

I have made that commitment and have a very capable single group and a couple of full on commercial grinders. I have no desire to upgrade my machine. I am also quite happy with my grinders, but if a Robur were to fall from the sky, I would not pass it up.

I had to bring my Giotto to a repair man last night. Brought it to his house, and in his garage were no less then 25 bicycles hanging from his ceiling. It reminded me of the popular opinion on how many bicycles should an enthusiast own. The answer is, the number you have, plus one. I'm not saying you should have more then one machine, just that every hobby-sport is subject to this same "disease".

Upgraditis - what be that?

Retrospectively I know, that my Caravels or Pavonis are capable of producing as good and interesting shots as i.e. my Paddle FB/80 or the Vivaldi II...

sweaner wrote:My problem is I don't upgrade, I add. I never sell the old stuff, it just accumulates in the basement!

Me too. And just today the wife yelled at me for my collection. Funny how they don't see it the way we do!

My progression:

Cheap thermoblock DeLonghi and Waring whirly blade grinder for six months

Gaggia Baby and Solis Maestro for one year

Isomac Tea and Mazzer Mini for six years and still counting


I actually did "trade up" from the Mini but saved money doing it. Having stumbled across a source for good prices on used Mazzer grinders I bought and refurbed a Super Jolly then sold my Mini on eBay. I then flipped the Super Jolly for a major which I also refurbed.

The Mini was and is a great grinder and I would have kept it but

a) I have loads of counter space and no cabinets or height limitations above my espresso prep area
b) I turned a profit each time I upgraded grinders

I've definitely suffered upgrade-itis with some other stuff in the past. But the reality for me is that an upgrade at this point would buy me convenience (plumbed in rather than the pour-over I have now) and just a tiny bit more consistency (dual boiler with PID rather than an HX system).

Provided that I pay attention to detail, keep my gear properly maintained and continue to use practices that reduce variables (i.e. cooling flush, consistent distribution and tamping etc.) my shots are better than what I can ever get in most cafes. Not all but most. Truth be told... if I had really deep pockets I'd get a one or two group Synesso and a Robur for my kitchen. But I'm doing just fine with what I have.