I've noticed that there are various models of the La Cimbali Junior including D, DT1, DTI, S and S1. Does anyone know the difference between these models. The homepage only notes DT1 and S1. Are the others older models? And is the main difference pump in (D series) and pourover (S series)?

Thanks,

Tom.

Thom: Give a call to 1st Line Coffee monday, they carry the machine and can give you the details. It is one of the machines I am considering for my pal who wants me to help her set up an espresso bar at home.
KDM

thomgonzales wrote:I've noticed that there are various models of the La Cimbali Junior including D, DT1, DTI, S and S1. Does anyone know the difference between these models. The homepage only notes DT1 and S1. Are the others older models? And is the main difference pump in (D series) and pourover (S series)?

Thanks,

Tom.

There are two Cimbali Juniors that are currently being imported into N. America; a pourover semi-auto (e.g. the "S" model) and a plumbed in automatic, the "D" model. They may be referred to as "D1" and "S1" which doesn't matter because there is only one of each type currently being produced.

The pourover model has a vibratory pump, which is noisier but easier and cheaper to replace, and the plumbed in model has a quieter rotary pump. You can program the shot buttons to produce predetermined shot volumes on the D (plumbed in) model, which is what makes it an "automatic," as opposed to the pourover vibe pump model which has simply, on/off type buttons. Most people who know how to properly use an automatic machine will nonetheless terminate shots manually, which makes this distinction between semi-auto and auto less important.

Both machines have autofill, where the boiler is automatically refilled to a level determined by a probe, without user interaction.

If I was in the market for this sort of machine I would consider all of the other options out there rather than blindly buying a Cimbali Junior. As the owner of both an older version "S" model and a current version "D" model, I heavily modified both, but currently use neither. I consider the current designs to be "dated." They will both make excellent shots, but without modification temperature management requires experience, and with the rotary machine, proper basket preparation is very important as channeling is quite common. The rotary, in particular, is not very fond of updosing, especially without modification.

On the plus side, Cimbali makes "bulletproof" machines that seldom break and that are laid out in such a way that servicing them is very easy.

Rumour has it that Cimbali is developing a new generation of machines that will make temperature control much easier than it is now on current models. Barring some sort of "fire sale" pricing, if I wanted to buy a new Cimbali, I'd be waiting for the next series of models to come out.

ken

Thank you very much for your thoughtful response. Is the channeling you mentioned endemic of rotaries in general or the Junior in particular?

thomgonzales wrote:Thank you very much for your thoughtful response. Is the channeling you mentioned endemic of rotaries in general or the Junior in particular?

I think it is not necessarily typical of other rotary pump driven machines. There was essentially no change made in the brew path when Cimbali went from the older (all) vibe pump machines to having a rotary pump in the plumbed in automatic. Older "D" machines had vibe pumps before the current version.

Vibe pumps by their very nature have a much slower ramp up to brew pressure than do rotary pumps. This slow ramp up to pressure with a vibe pump provided its own sort of pre-infusion. Since Cimbali apparently didn't change the brew path to allow for any "plumbing-based" pre-infusion, this allows the rotary pump in the current "D" machine to blast the puck with 9 bar of pressure almost the instant you touch the brew button. When you combine this with the fact that the Cimbali double basket is fairly shallow and doesn't allow much room for puck expansion below the brew screen, you get a relatively high likelihood of "puck fracturing" when updosing, which results in what is seen in the cup as a bad extraction due to channeling.

I noticed this in operation when I bought my new(er) D rotary machine, after having used the vibe pourover machine for almost a decade. What I noticed was that with what had been my standard dosing (to the rim, around 18 or 19g), the vibe machine had no trouble making good shots, but the rotary had a high percentage of channeled shots. The PFs are interchangeable as are the baskets and groups between the two machines. Pressure profiling with a PF manometer clearly showed the difference in pressure ramp up between the two machines.

Getting back to your question, many of the other commercial and semi-commercial machines out there have a plumbing-related form of pre-infusion inherent in their designs. This would include, for example, the E-61 design and that of La Marzocco, which uses a gicleur for that purpose. You can modify the Cimbali Junior rotary to have preinfusion in the way that I modified mine -- by adding in a Delay-on-Make cube timer on the pump circuit and hence allowing the group solenoid to open several seconds before the pump does, preinfusing the puck with regulated mains pressure. All of the parts needed to do this modification, together, probably cost less than $100, but it is a PITA to have to do this on a brand new machine just to be able to reliably updose if that is what you want to do, so I'd just buy another machine that doesn't have this limitation if that is what I wanted to do. If you already have one of these machines, I'd encourage you to dose in the range of about 14g, as most Italians do. You might find you prefer it, as I do. I think that the reason that Cimbali did not modify the brew path when they came out with the Rotary Junior, was that in Italy one doses 12-14g for a double and they assumed that everyone else in the world does also, which turns out to be a faulty assumption.

If, on the other hand, you intend to dose in the 12-15g (maybe 16g) range, then I think the modification I outlined would not provide enough benefit to bother doing.

Although I don't updose, I do view this problem with the Cimbali rotary machine as being somewhat of a design flaw. In addition, I think the machine's thermal behavior is such that it really "wants" to make shot after shot, as in a commercial environment, and in that sort of usage would be very temperature stable. As a home machine, however, getting temperature stability out of it is not easy or straightforward, and I think that other machine designs are better suited to "temperature surfing" in a low volume environment such as in a home.

As I have said, these machines are bulletproof. I hope that Cimbali's rumoured new machine line comes out soon, because if you could combine some modernization to the design but retain the ruggedness and easy serviceability for which Cimbali is famous, you would have a killer combination.

ken

Hi Ken,

You mentioned that you think there are better machines out there, and also know you have the GS3. How much difference do you find between the GS3 and the Cimbali Junior, and what machines would you consider to be a better option if you can't quite afford the GS3 (ie: Domobar Super?) for home use.

munckhof wrote:Hi Ken,

You mentioned that you think there are better machines out there, and also know you have the GS3. How much difference do you find between the GS3 and the Cimbali Junior, and what machines would you consider to be a better option if you can't quite afford the GS3 (ie: Domobar Super?) for home use.

Hi,

In actual use (as an experienced user of these machines) I find the shots to be of equivalent quality across my three machines, including my old circa 1995 vibe Cimbali Junior Pourover, the rotary D1, and my current GS3. Of the 3 machines, the GS3 is certainly the easiest to use and to get consistent shots out of, because I no longer have to do any specific sort of "flushing ritual." But, knowing how to use the 3 different machines, and within the confines of my own usage pattern (~14g, almost exclusively single origin, double shots, most coffees I use showing best at a brew temp of around 198F), I don't detect any noticeable difference.

I'm not at all sure that I'd recommend the GS3, now that I own it. It has given me no end of grief with gicleur cloggings and noise/vibration problems that simply should not be expected with a machine in that price range. I have had to take the brewhead apart (actually part of the boiler) 4 times in its brief period of ownership. And the noise and vibration problems, although intermittent, continue. I expect them to be resolved when I receive the new, longer, braided SS hose sometime in February. The machine was a good deal for the fire sale price I paid, but would I pay more for it? I don't think so.

In trying to recommend another machine as an alternative, this is where my knowledge base of competing machines is a little bit thin. I think I'd go either a lot cheaper or perhaps more expensive, compared to the Cimbali Jr. On the more expensive side, I'd look at the Elektra A3/T(whatever), or at the Speedster. On the cheaper side I'd look through the whole upper range of semi-commercial machines, using machine reviews on this site as a good starting point. Another option would be to pick up an older single group commercial machine and to restore it. An old sight-glass containing "S" model Cimbali Jr. Pourover, obtained at a good price, would be a very nice restoration project, and very amenable to hacking such as replacing the P-stat with a PID.

ken