I have decided it's time to upgrade the spaziale
Vivaldi ii with a marzocco gs3 or gs3 paddle. Is the paddle machine all that it's made out to be or just a gimmick and should I go for original design?

UFGators wrote:I have decided it's time to upgrade the spaziale
Vivaldi ii with a marzocco gs3 or gs3 paddle. Is the paddle machine all that it's made out to be or just a gimmick and should I go for original design?

Your current machine is near the top of the home barista food chain. If you want people to answer your question in a potentially useful fashion, then you need to explain why it is you want to do this "upgrade." For example, what do you expect to be able to accomplish with your new gear that you can't accomplish with the Vivaldi II? What do you like and or dislike about your current machine? Why have you settled specifically on this choice of machines (LM GS/3s) vs. any of a number of other commercial machines that could be considered competitors for the LMs?

ken

Ken Fox wrote:Your current machine is near the top of the home barista food chain. If you want people to answer your question in a potentially useful fashion, then you need to explain why it is you want to do this "upgrade." For example, what do you expect to be able to accomplish with your new gear that you can't accomplish with the Vivaldi II? What do you like and or dislike about your current machine? Why have you settled specifically on this choice of machines (LM GS/3s) vs. any of a number of other commercial machines that could be considered competitors for the LMs?

ken

I would like to have better control over brew temperatures and the ability to use a triple basket without a bottomless portafilter. Do I really need another machine? Def not but I would like to upgrade the machine if it gives me more ability to customize my shots. I did the right thing and upgraded my grinder first (using a compaq k10 WBC) just looking the next best thing!

To answer your question, the paddle machine isn't exactly a gimmick. It provides something you have on your Vivaldi II: line-pressure pre-infusion. However, the pre-infusion time is controlled manually via the paddle, as opposed to being able to set a repeatable timer on the Vivaldi. Probably not a huge deal, as the GS/3 has a built-in shot timer you can watch while doing the pre-infusion.

Just like the Vivaldi, the paddle version of the GS/3 gives you two pressure options: line and pump (nominally 9 BAR.) It does not provide continuously variable pressure. The only kind of pressure profiling you can do is to use line pressure at the beginning and/or end of the shot.

The original design doesn't offer line pressure pre-infusion. It's strictly pump-on/pump-off. The original design, however, has volumetric dosing and an automatic backflush cycle that the paddle design lacks. I used to use volumetric dosing, but gave up on it due to lack of precision and consistency. Weighing the dose and extraction to get a target extraction ratio is a much better way to dose the water and time the shot. I do use the automatic backflush feature, and really like it.

Since Chris Coffee sells both versions of the machine for the same price, it depends on whether you feel pre-infusion or volumetric dosing/automatic backflush are more important.

That said, if you're handy with electronics, you can easily add a motor on/off switch to the original GS/3 to get line-pressure pre-infusion just like the paddle version. Then you get the best of both worlds. You just flip the switch to turn off the motor, hit the brew switch, wait for the line pressure to fill the portafilter (look for the first drops of espresso on the bottom of the basket), then switch the motor on. You terminate the shot by hitting the brew button again. I've done this mod and it works quite well.

Some will argue that pre-infusion is not necessary, especially on a forgiving machine like the GS/3. I mostly use it for singles and low-dose doubles, but sometimes use it for higher-dose coffees. My sense is that it does improve the taste in some cases, but I haven't done a blind taste test to prove it. Nonetheless, I'm glad to have the option.

the GS/3 has a built-in shot timer you can watch while doing the pre-infusion.

The shot timer only counts when the pump is running, so no use for Pre-Infusion, you have to use either an external timer or count it in your head.

I would also do a search for Ken Fox's issues with ongoing maintenance of the paddle.

mitch236 wrote:I would also do a search for Ken Fox's issues with ongoing maintenance of the paddle.

Actually, I haven't posted that much on this issue, although others have. My issues were predominantly with my original (non paddle) model.

Since the paddle O-rings are known to need frequent replacement and since the design is not terribly user friendly unless one has the rather expensive "blind O-ring puller," I think that LM should include this device with the paddle models it sells, as well as a healthy number of the O-rings themselves, which must cost them next to nothing in the first place.

The instructions for changing these O-rings could be a lot better, also.

If you make the mistake of removing the top boiler cap in the process of servicing the Paddle O-rings (definitely not recommended) you will need another, larger O-ring for replacement, since the machine is more or less guaranteed to leak, bigtime, unless you do so. That larger O-ring (not the huge one on the top cap itself) presumably needs replacement every time you take the top cap off.

ken

I faced the same dilemma about a year ago and opted for the LM non-paddle version. The primary decision factors were driven by my schedule and technical skills:

a. I am not nearly as technically skilled as other posters. Lack the ability to routinely tinker with the machines internal mechanisms as freely as some. I live in a remote location so I can't get it repaired as easily should I break it.

b. The non-paddle can control temp fairly easily with programming. I have no issues. It is fairly stable.

c. Lifestyle/Use pattern: I use my machine (excluding weekends) every m-f from 5-6 AM to draw 6 double shots espresso. Add in maintenance and cleaning before hitting the road for work. That's one hour. I'm pretty much in a fog that time of day so minimal fuss was a critical factor in my decision. Once I dialed in the GS/3 with the volumetric dosing, programming etc, figured out its quirks...it was pretty much a no brainer. The non paddle was the right decision for my lifestyle. I can pull some consistently great shots for a hack. The machine works great and I have had no problems with it.

Greg

Ken Fox wrote:Since the paddle O-rings are known to need frequent replacement ....

I know they won't last forever, but I have had no leaks in 18 months of continuous use. I had no clue they could be a problem until your earlier posts.

I'm beginning to wonder if this is at least partly a water treatment issue.

Marshall wrote:I know they won't last forever, but I have had no leaks in 18 months of continuous use. I had no clue they could be a problem until your earlier posts.

I'm beginning to wonder if this is at least partly a water treatment issue.

I doubt it has anything to do with the water, unless the water one is using is of a quality that degrades seals in other places. Being as I've never had problems with seals in other machines or elsewhere in my house (I have a whole house water softener), I doubt there is a water connection. I used to have scaling problems with resultant leaks around the house (faucet valves; clogged aerators, showerhead malfunctions) before I got the softener.

Scott at LM tech support told me that in home use the seals in the GS/3 paddle last around 9 months, which is about what I got before I had to change mine out; in commercial service it is much shorter, perhaps 3 months. Andy S. has a friend who has a paddle and from what Andy told me this friend has had to replace his paddle seals every 3 or 4 months. This friend believes the design of the paddle causes the seals to wear out quickly because of backflushing, and that if there was some way to backflush without having to turn the valve on and off each time, that the seals would last longer.

I only noticed the leaking on start up; the leak self-sealed after the machine heated up and pressurized. Had I heated the machine up off of a timer I would probably not have noticed it since the leakage evaporates/boils off after a time when the machine has reached operating temperature. I only allowed this to go on for a couple of months, after which I replaced the seals. What I do not know is what would happen ultimately if these leaky seals were left in place for months or a year. Perhaps the seals would then break and at that point a minor dripping annoyance type leak could become a 9 bar facilitated flood. I just don't know, and would not advise any readers to try to find out

So, Marshall, either you are very lucky or you perhaps have not been watching the machine closely when it pressurizes and heats up from room temperature. If the machine is being started on a timer, I'd rate that likelihood as pretty high.

ken