Hello,

I've spent a few hours surfing and researching. It would appear that either Google likes this site or the members at this site have the answers to my questions, hence the registration and post. I need to make a decision within the next day or two and would appreciate some input from this group.

It must have been about 8 years ago that I developed an addiction to lattes, mochas, cappuccinos and the occasional shot of espresso. I went from drinking many, many cups of drip coffee per day, to one - quad shot, non-fat, 16 oz latte per day, every day unless I'm in the bush chasing critters or somewhere traveling where the locals don't drink coffee. Sometimes I add flavoring, sometimes not, sometimes a scoop of white chocolate or a combination of sorts. In short, my day just sucks if I don't get my AM fix. Usually, I do not require more than this, but there are days when I'll have an additional drink of sorts or guests want a shot of espresso. I am not a coffee connoisseur, but I can definitely tell when I get a drink I don't like so I am somewhat finicky. I do not like Starbucks, but they'll do in a pinch when I'm traveling if that works as a quantifier. I don't consider myself a wine snob either, but I have about 1000 bottles in my cellar, all starting at 30 bucks and up... I guess I'm just trying to say I can differentiate swill from the good stuff... The 'drinkers' don't come out till my palate is saturated.

Many years ago after doing some quick math, I decided to invest in a home machine. At about five bucks a day (minimum four bucks for the drink, a buck for the tip); it was a no-brainer for me to spend $1000 on my first machine. I ended up buying a Jura super-auto. After some experimenting, I was able to make a fairly good cup of coffee. I've since gone through two other Jura machines and now my latest machine is requiring repair. This machine is a Gaggia Platinum Swing Up. I decided to chase down a pesky leak to fix it and ended up breaking the control panel after an hour of frustration figuring out how to disassembly the thing to get to an o-ring. Typically when the machine dies for whatever reason, I send it in for repair and buy a new one if I can't fix it myself (success has been mixed). I sell the repaired machine to one of my friends.

When I bought the Gaggia 18 months ago, I was contemplating moving to a semi auto machine. Even though the machines I've had over the years have performed well enough to satisfy my AM addiction, I have never been able to make a cup as good as the girls at my favorite barista. But, the convenience of the super-auto's is a wonderful thing for me that I am hesitant to give up. I don't have much time to kill (typing this is killing me as I have many things I need to be doing right now). The machines I've had are warmed up and ready to go to work when I wake up in the morning. Within ten minutes I have my drink and I'm out the door. Not knowing anything about the semi-autos, I was hesitant to give this up. I should also add that my girlfriend uses the machines and she's very "machine challenged". She's not someone to figure out complicated electronic devices in general. I'm not sure if she could master pulling a shot. Maybe, if I can simplify the process for her. I also need to learn to do this, but I'm a quick learner, so that aspect does not intimidate me in the least.

So here I am again, deliberating what to do. Repair parts for the Gaggia are a few weeks out. I don't want to wait a few weeks. I'm going to buy something, I need to buy something. This time I'll probably just fix and keep the Gaggia for a back up instead of selling it.

I'm considering the following options:

1) Buy another Gaggia Swing Up. Wholelattelove has them on sale for $1000
2) Buy a reconditioned Jura Z5 - $1900
3) Buy a reconditioned Jura S9 - $1300
4) Buy a semi auto and grinder - $??????

I've had good luck with the reconditioned Juras, as the factory seams to do a very good job at this. I tried a reconditioned Gaggia and it was not a good experience.

Option 4 has me completely baffled. I am totally clueless what machine to get, what to look for, which one is reliable, which one is the most user friendly (RE: machine challenged girlfriend), and the grinder purchase choice is equally difficult.

If I do go the semi-auto route, I have space limitations. I can't plumb water to it and it will need to reside a few feet away from the sink. I'm not afraid to spend what I need to spend to accomplish my needs, as long as I don't go through buyer's remorse later. I absolutely hate wasting money. Some un-informed research tells me that I'll have to spend $1500 and up for a good machine, and another $500 for a good grinder. But again, what model to buy is a mystery to me.

I think at this point, I'm just looking for some general guidance and thoughts from this forum's members who have similar needs and expectations.

Thank you for your time, if you made it this far.

..........mike

Hi Mike,

First things first. Appreciating wine and appreciating coffee are 2 very different things, and while I think there's a common strain there (tasting) the elements of your expectations, and specific palate education can really diverge there. Case in point, you can get a decent wine (for a fat markup) at many decent restaurants. The same can't even slightly be said of coffee. So, I'd say I'd mark your appreciation of wine down as a place where you have potential to have 'good taste' in coffee, but not an indication that you do. The fact that you tolerate Starbucks might be helpful in gauging your taste, but I hope it's unlikely. Now, let me preface the rest of this post by saying that I am making a lot of assumptions about your habit based on the tenor of your post, and particular the things you don't mention. It's easy to get the short end of the stick doing this, so if I'm wrong about any of those assumptions, please feel free to correct me and I'll be glad to apologize to you...

If you are thinking of changing up your coffee routine with a semi-automatic setup, and you're looking for advice from the members of this forum. I would advise you to start with coffee. Where do you get coffee? Are you in the habit of drinking dark-roasted coffee from bags that don't have roast dates on them? At HB we generally consider coffee to be stale 14-30 days after it's roasted, and the coffee is pretty lifeless at this point. Dark-roasted coffee (where the surface of the beans is very shiny) is generally shunned here unless the roaster really knows what he's doing. There's arguably a place for pretty dark roasts, but most roasters doing dark roasts just burn out their coffee till the varietal flavors are dead and all that's left is maybe a hint of chocolate and a ton of ash, leather, bitter flavors.

But back up a little more. Where is your roaster getting coffee? Finding coffees that are grown and processed with care and attention isn't the easiest thing in the world, and few US roasters rise to that challenge. Most of them are looking for the cheapest prices. Coffee can never be better than the beans you source, so if you want a great cup of coffee, you have to find the best roasters and avoid the bad ones. So, our first question would be, again, what kind of coffee do you drink? Where do you get it? Are you aware of when it was roasted, and how dark it was roasted? If you don't know this, you should probably fix that before spending any money on a semi-automatic espresso machine and grinder.

How do you 'fix' that? Well, for starters I'd suggest buying fresh, whole bean coffee from one of the site sponsors such as Intelligentsia, PT's Coffee, or Counter Culture. Since you're in Alaska, you might try something from the Pacific Northwest like Stumptown (see list of our favorite roasters for more). Most good specialty coffee roasters post cupping notes (note: "Extra Bold" is not a cupping note) to their coffees from various origins, and you can use those to try and pick something that might suit you best. If you can get a coffee and try it, preferably as brewed coffee (say, French press) rather than attempting to pull it as espresso, see if that's good to you. If it's better than your usual, if it makes you to want to make coffee that's unique, balanced, and nuanced, and to learn about our obsession here at Home-Barista, then you may be a candidate for a semi-automatic espresso machine. If you want to keep tolerating Starbucks and the type of coffees that come from a typical supermarket, I would stick with the super-automatic and the large milk drinks, because the extra trouble of the semiautomatic setup with that type of coffee isn't worth it (IMO).

Apologies if that's kind of a bubble-burster, but I think this is an important step if you're already invested in an expensive method of coffee preparation and haven't been exposed to true 'specialty' coffee and what it can be. Switching (to fantastic, artisan-roasted coffee + a good grinder and espresso machine, and learning how to use them properly) could be absolute nirvana for you, or it could be a nightmarish PITA that gets you something you didn't want in the first place. The latter is a virtual guarantee, I think, if you don't do the "getting artisan-roasted coffee" and "learning how to use an espresso machine" parts.

The Espresso Guide and the FAQs and Favorites Digest are great places to start on your journey, and don't forget this site's forum search tips. A lot of the road you're on is well-trodden. The answer is out there, and the best way to find it is more searching. Good luck...

Hey Mike,

It sounds to me like what you want is super-auto (gasp), again. Unless... Unless you are willing to invest time to learn to use semi-auto and buy fresh coffee. In that case semi-auto is huge step-up in terms of quality of coffee you will drink. But it requires up front time investment to learn to prepare good drink. Not much time to get started, with reasonable machine and information on this web-site you should be up and running in couple of days or week.

But it seems to me like you are short on time and you were happy with taste you've got with super-autos so you should probably stick with that...

Thanks for the candid response.

When I say I can tolerate Starbucks, that is when I'm somewhere where there is no other option. There are many, many places in the US where drip is all you will find and some places where you can find a Starbucks, and nothing else.

I have tried specialty beans like Illy, some 100% Kona beans a friend of mine sends me who lives there, and others, but quite frankly, could not tell that much of a difference when running them through the super auto's and feel as if I'm just wasting good beans on them. However, I can definitely appreciate them if I make a cup with a French press (I hate drip) . I have a preference for a local roaster's beans (Kaladi Brothers) when I frequent the many different baristas that source their beans from different sources. I tried using those same beans, but was disappointed with the results in my machines. I gave up trying to reproduce at home what I could buy. I now use Sumatra beans that are roasted at Costco. I know, sacrilege to some, but they seam to yield the best tasting coffee from this machine.

I would more than likely enjoy a nice cup of espresso if I could actually make one that didn't require some raw sugar to make it palatable. I've tried over and over again to make one to my satisfaction with the machines I've bought, but I continue to be disappointed. They end up being bitter and it doesn't seam to matter what settings I change or what beans I use. I now just go for the thickest, most potent shot I can make and fill up the rest of my mug with steamed milk. It feeds my addiction, but I admit that I find them lacking and feel this itch that I just can't seam to scratch.

I've spent some time on the phone with Chris Coffee and watched a couple videos on U-tube. I'm almost convinced to just take the leap and go for a semi auto. The nice lady I spoke to suggested I go with a Mini Vivaldi II machine and the Vario grinder. They also have a programmable timer option for another $200. Shipping the beast to me is very expensive, $350. That's a sizable chunk of change all tallied up, but I'm willing to spend it.

I will sit on this decision for a day....... Your thought have mirrored those I've had for years. I'm not sure I'd appreciate a real cup of coffee and the costs to make one may just be wasted on me.

mdrew,

I work from home and pull anywhere from 2-6 doubles each day. Like you I add vanilla flavoring and make latte's. Since I'm home all day, I've decided that I have the time to spend making drinks manually, cleaning a manual machine & maintaining a grinder. This will take much more effort as you know than a super automatic such as the Z5. I have a Z5 and have loved it for the past year. I have recently decided to buy a Hottop roaster, a Mahlkonig K30 Vario grinder and a La Marzocco GS/3. Needless to say I've just dumped nearly $9K... I'm looking to recoup some of my money so I'd be willing to let my Z5 go for $1,500 if you're interested. It is in perfect working order and mint condition. I can take pictures for you if you want as well.

Cheers!

Mike, why just a day? Life is short, but not that short.

For what it's worth, I would consider Illy coffee pretty trashy in the US. I had a ristretto pulled at a wonderful Italian pizzeria napoletana (wonderful pizza and Italian desserts, that is) last Friday, and it was maybe the best I've ever had of Illy. The best I could say of it was "utterly unremarkable." I was impressed that it was easy to take straight, though—it was balanced. So I assume if you're getting utterly bitter coffee from Illy, you're not extracting it properly. Or it's been on the shelf way too long. Anyway, there's surely some good coffee coming from Kona, but most of it seems to go in crappy "Kona blends" and generally it just seems to get abused. Again, you can get some nice Kona coffee, but if you're not looking for it, chances are it's just overpriced commodity coffee. Costco is more of the same—as you guess, none of this stuff is in the league of what US artisan roasters are producing, the kind of stuff you need to use if you want some really great coffee/espresso.

It sounds like convenience is a high priority to you, but some of your comments also suggest that you are looking for something better and willing to do some exploration to find it. For what it's worth, great espresso isn't that difficult, especially if you get a sweet setup like a Vario and Vivaldi (disclosure: I have no experience with the machine, just taking it on reputation). Your location in Alaska makes getting great coffee potentially expensive, but if you invest in a nice cold deep freezer and some mason jars, you can certainly get great coffee in bulk (~5 lbs at a time) and freeze it to keep it fresh. There's a lot of contention on doing this, so I'd do some research on it and how to do it properly/best: here (article discussion) and here.

Jake - You must REALLY love your coffee!! Yeah, I'm not THAT into it. But I did just order my Peter Michael and Vineyard 29 allotments and most of my friends think I'm nuts to spend $175 for a bottle of wine, and I bought many and think they are worth every penny.... I'll keep your Z5 in mind as I ponder this decision some more.

Nicholas - I hear what you are saying about the beans. Garbage in, garbage out right? Do you really think if I invest in some better beans that a super auto would do them justice? The Kona I get is 100% and comes from a small grower. It's very fresh and a real treat. I do not run it threw my machines as the results have been depressing. Good to know about the Illy. I just assumed it was good stuff due to the price. My hurry is the fact that I don't have anything in the house right now to make my coffee. I miss the convenience of making my drink at home. If I try some better beans, I'll still have to buy a good grinder as the one I have is just a POS with a whirling blade. So to experiment would require me to order a good grinder, order a new press (been looking at the Aero Press) as mine is junk. So that will take me out another two weeks before I can even experiment.

Maybe I just need to invest in a higher end super auto? I have read on this sight where some feel the higher end machines do an admirable job.

Again, thanks for the feedback. It's good to hear different thoughts and opinions. It helps me put things into perspective.

Mike,

I don't expect your super-auto would do good coffee beans justice, but I can't say for sure. French Press and Aeropress are pretty easy brewing methods that can get you a spectacular cup of coffee, and there are lots of other affordable methods to get a nice cup as well. I'd suggest using one of those as a pretty decent way to learn how great coffee tastes. Great espresso isn't far off; it's more concentrated, heavy, intense, etc. when it's at its best.

If I were you I'd get a Vario and a French press or Aeropress now and start learning to make coffee with some Intelligentsia or Stumptown coffee. There are some awesome roasters in Canada as well; that might work for you. 49th Parallel comes to mind. Then I'd wait for the superauto to come back from being repaired and try the same coffees on it. That way you make a much more informed decision all around—whether you wanna just drink normally brewed great coffee, upgrade to a semiautomatic setup, get a nicer superauto, or stick with the stuff you have now.

Making a good decision for yourself here hinges on patience, I think. You can stick with what you know and that's easy and maybe best, but if your curious about matching your high-end wine experience with a high-end coffee experience, you're definitely going to have to take a risk and take your time to do some studying.

My decision is made. I'm going to buy a semi auto and grinder. I don't care to deliberate long. My main reason is I want the tools to make myself a damn good cup of coffee, espresso, latte, mocha, whatever...... The super auto will continue to limit my abilities. Seven days now buying quad shot lattes from a couple different baristas has convinced me that it's time.

I've decided to go with the Vario grinder. Too many positive comments on this sight and others to ignore. It seams this grinder is a heck of a bargain and competes with much higher priced grinders.

I'm not sure which machine to get though. I've done a fair amount of research, but I am still in the somewhat ignorant state.

I'm sold on a double boiler design. Different steam temps appeal to me. I do not want a double use boiler or heat exchanger.

I can, if needed, plumb a machine. It will look tacky in my kitchen, as hoses and regulators will be out in the open. I have commercial stainless steel and granite counters and back splashes. I can not (and wouldn't) cut or bore holes through them. I can however snake tubing up and over a backsplash but like I said, it will look tacky.

It looks like the Mini Vivaldi is the most suitable machine for my situation, but I don't know what I don't know. The Mini appears simple to learn, robust design, dependable, simple appearance, two year warranty. The mini has a vibrator pump whereas the regular Vivaldi had a rotary pump. I do not know if this matters much, but there is a preference for rotary on this sight. Why is that?

Are there any other double boiler machines in this price range I should consider?

mdrew,

Chris @ Chris Coffee designed the Vivaldi II to include all of the most desired features of today's modern semi-auto. The rotary model has to be plumbed & has programmable line pressure pre-infusion. Mini does not come equipped with pre-infusion. You'll have to buy an add-on for that. Also the Rotary model has a knob for the steam wand versus a lever on the mini. Rotary tends to be a bit more quite.

There is no conclusive evidence that a rotary pump makes a better shot over a vibe pump. Heck my new GS/3 has a vibe pump and it's $5,500... so that should more than prove my point.

Rotary pumps typically need to be plumbed in as they could become damaged if allowed to run dry by an empty reservoir. So you usually won't find a rotary pump on a pour over machine.

If money is no object go for the sexier GS/3, however if you're funds are limited then either the rotary or mini Vivaldi II will more than exceed your expectations!