I've finally settled on a machine, but I'm still undecided about a grinder. I've read everything I can find here about the ones I'm considering, but I'm still having a hard time deciding. If anyone with experience (or just extensive knowledge) about these particular models can help, I would appreciate it.

I learned on a Super Jolly, and while it worked great, I tended to go through a lot of coffee adjusting it, so I decided that I wanted to get a conical for home. The small size of the Cimbali Max Hybrid made it quite appealing. I don't currently have any vertical space constraints, but who knows what the future holds? The K10 WBC has been the other major contender, but now the doserless is available and I'm considering that as well. I like it a lot better than the Cimbali, but unfortunately, it's twice as expensive and I have not managed to convince myself that it's worth it.

Based on the results of Will It Beat the Robur, both seem to produce good enough results that I'm unlikely to need to upgrade any time this decade. The differences, as I've tallied them so far:

* The K10 has been said to be a little more stable as far as grind results
* The Max Hybrid's doser doesn't like anything but full pulls. Quick short pulls don't move the vanes like they do on other dosers
* The K10 hopper can be removed easily and quickly, but the Cimbali has to be unscrewed
* The K10 actually looks like a grinder, whereas I want to cry every time I think about spending $800 on something that looks like the Max Hybrid.
* The Max Hybrid is small, while the K10 is pretty tall even with a short hopper
* The Max Hybrid is half the price of the K10 doserless and a lot cheaper than the WBC

Is there anything else I've missed? Other than price and size, everything seems to favor the Compak. But in practice, how much (if at all) have these things affected you as a user? Is there anything else that really annoys you about the either of them? While the price difference is big, when amortized over years of use, it's not really that big... and unlike price, annoyance compounds over the years.

If I decide to go K10, the decision about the doserless is even harder. I haven't seen any responses yet on the K10 doserless thread, so it's not clear how reliable dosing from the timer is. If I have people over and I'm making a lot of milk drinks, I'm not going to be weighing every shot out of the grinder. A timer would be pretty handy if it works well enough to be worth using.

For the more usual case of just pulling a couple of shots, the retention and easy cleaning on the doserless is of paramount importance. I haven't seen any definitive answers on that yet, either. It's easy enough to clean the chute on a K10 WBC, but with the bathtub spigot bolted to the front of the doserless, it looks like it might be a real hassle.

Thoughts? Rants? Suggestions that I'm crazy and should be considering something else entirely?

The Cimbali Max Hybrid (hereafter abbreviated as "CMH") is not a "true" conical -- it is a hybrid, with one 64mm conical and one 64mm flat burr. It is currently priced at $760.75 after discount.

The Compak K10 (hereafter abbreviated as "K10"), on the other hand, IS a true conical, with a 68mm conical burr set. But there are three different versions of the K10: the K10 Conic, or "regular" version, is $1,382.50; the K10 WBC is $1,417.50 (black) or $1,425.00 (polished); and the K10 Doserless is $1,855.00. Each is substantially more expensive than the CMH, and -- personally -- I would be hard-pressed to find the difference in price worth it.

Now, let me clearly state that I was in a similar position to you. After reading the Titan Grinder Project: Can it Beat the Robur? thread, I was looking carefully at both the CMH and the K10. I opted for the K10 for three reasons: first, the distribution at the time of Compak was "iffy" at best (though this has been rectified and should no longer be an issue); second was the level of grind retention with the K10; and third, the price tag.

I have been very happy with the CMH, but . . .

The "but" is that it is not a grinder for everyone. The optimum user of the CMH is someone who does not frequently change beans/blends, and someone who does not "dose-by-the-shot" but rather leaves some beans in the hopper. Without beans in the hopper, this grinder will "popcorn" significantly. (BTW, yes -- the hopper is held in place with three screws.) Also, the grinder is louder than I would prefer. It's not going to make anyone deaf, and there are ways to dampen the decibel level, but you'll never be able to quietly make an espresso at 5:00 a.m.

I still use my CMH five days a week; it's in my office. But I replaced it at home with a Mahlkönig K30 Vario, the stepless version of the K30 ES. It has a 65mm flat burr set, but I find the grind quality to be excellent, and it is a) very quiet, and b) very fast.

To read the TGP, I was very excited about the K10 . . . now not so much. Please remember that I do not own one; take what I am saying with the requisite grains of salt! But I think it would be worthwhile to read through the following for "hands on" plusses-and-minuses regarding the K10:

• Got my new Compak K10
• Combak K10 WBC Maintenance
• Just about to go crazy over shot inconsistency
• Compak K10 WBC or Mazzer Robur?
• Compak K10 WBC Grinder - User Report
• Compak K10 Grinder, availablity? opinions?
• among many, many others.

AGAIN, take these postings with whatever grains of salt you deem appropriate, and especially check the dates of the posts -- some may no longer be valid concerns, while some may be.

The bottom line, I think, is that either grinder would make you quite happy, but if you have the money for a K10, why not give a serious look to something like the aforementioned Mahlkönig*, or a Mazzer Kony, or even a used Robur + new burrs?

Just a thought . . .

Cheers,
Jason

* In the FWIW Dept., if you check out the Mahlkönig USA website (different than the link above), and then click on "Specials" at the top of the page, you can often find a K30 Vario that was used at a trade show for substantially less -- approx. the price of a K10 WBC. Just a thought.

I found the grind quality equally good in side by side tests. The ergonomics are completely different. The Compak is the best of the Titan's for single dose grinding, for changing coffees, and for making large grind setting changes; it is however a monster. The Max is much more compact and sleek; but it only works for one coffee at a time, using the hopper, for espresso only.

The choice should be obvious based on your needs

I too was concerned about the ergonomics and aesthetics of the Cimbali Max Hybrid, but talked myself into it because it's a lot of grinder for the money.

When I received the grinder, I was indeed very disappointed in the ergonomics, having grown accustomed to Mazzer grinders. I hated the long throw of the dosing lever, the plastic bits in the doser, and the inaccessibility of the chute. The absolute need for a bean load above the burrs was an additional downside.

However, the deal breaker for me was clumping. It was very difficult to get a good distribution in the basket, between the awkward dosing lever and the sticky, clumpy grinds. I had read on H-B that the CMH would perform well without fancy redistribution techniques but my experience was the opposite; I had to massage the heck out of the coffee before tamping to avoid channeling.

Now, having read more about burr break-in and clumping on brand new Roburs, etc... I think I probably didn't give the CMH a fair shake. I ran several pounds through, but maybe I really needed to run 50+ pounds through to get the burrs to "settle in." But with only 30 days to return the machine, I regrettably had to send it back.

If you like ergonomics of the Super Jolly, it seems that the Compak WBC is setup in a similar fashion and might be a better fit for you. It has a really short hopper available, and you can successfully run it hopperless if height ever becomes an issue.

Or just get a used Super Jolly or Major for much less than both grinders. I personally do not experience the "frequent need to adjust" that so many people complain about. Even on my Mazzer Mini, my grind setting stays pretty stable. Most of the time I just tweak the dose if I'm not happy with the flow rate. That said, I have considered a Compak K10 for its apparent ability to pull sweeter shots from light acidic coffees.

You make good points about the doserless model. The doser model can be cleaned in one minute! and the chute grounds can be spooned out. With the doserless nose you would not be able to do that. This are the tools I use.



One is an ice cake spatula that has been trimmed (to spoon out the grounds in the chute). The other is an acid brush that has also been trimmed (to clean the impellers). The doser model is very good at doing single shots changing beans on the fly.

Cheers

another_jim wrote:I found the grind quality equally good in side by side tests. The ergonomics are completely different. The Compak is the best of the Titan's for single dose grinding, for changing coffees, and for making large grind setting changes; it is however a monster. The Max is much more compact and sleek; but it only works for one coffee at a time, using the hopper, for espresso only.

The choice should be obvious based on your needs

To Jim's comments I would only add that there is a significant price difference with the Max offering one of the best bangs for the buck of any high end grinder one would consider using in a home setting. If you are considering getting a large "Titan-like" grinder for your home, for the same amount of money or perhaps a little more, you could get TWO Maxs, which will fit under kitchen counters and will afford the easy option of having at least 2 or three coffees available on a daily basis without having to operate the grinder for single dosing.

Some have complained about the noise level of the Max while grinding. Although it may be a little louder than some grinders, the short periods of time that it is used for renders this criticism unduly "picky" in my view. Using the same criteria there is no end to the list of other briefly used home appliances that one should avoid.

ken

Ken, I agree that the CMH provides great "bang for the buck." As for the noise level, all I can tell you is that the noise -- or rather, perhaps, the notice of noise -- is much less in a law office during working hours than it is at 5:30 am at home . . .

zin1953 wrote:The Cimbali Max Hybrid (hereafter abbreviated as "CMH") is not a "true" conical -- it is a hybrid, with one 64mm conical and one 64mm flat burr.

Understood. I would have thought that the much longer grind path the hybrid design provides would result in an even more stable grind. Someone (I think it was Ken) indicated that that wasn't the case, and I've been curious why. It didn't sound like it was much worse than the slightly larger conicals, however, so I wasn't too worried about it.

zin1953 wrote:The optimum user of the CMH is someone who does not frequently change beans/blends, and someone who does not "dose-by-the-shot" but rather leaves some beans in the hopper. Without beans in the hopper, this grinder will "popcorn" significantly. Also, the grinder is louder than I would prefer.

another_jim wrote:The Compak is the best of the Titan's for single dose grinding, for changing coffees, and for making large grind setting changes; it is however a monster. The Max is much more compact and sleek; but it only works for one coffee at a time, using the hopper, for espresso only.

portamento wrote:When I received the grinder, I was indeed very disappointed in the ergonomics, having grown accustomed to Mazzer grinders. I hated the long throw of the dosing lever, the plastic bits in the doser, and the inaccessibility of the chute. The absolute need for a bean load above the burrs was an additional downside.

That's what I was afraid of. All of those issues disqualify the Max for me. Thanks... I'm glad I didn't jump at what seemed like a great deal and end up with something completely inappropriate.

zin1953 wrote:If you have the money for a K10, why not give a serious look to something like the aforementioned Mahlkönig*, or a Mazzer Kony, or even a used Robur + new burrs?

I considered trying to find a used Robur, but it seems to retain a ton of grinds. I don't plan to single dose, so I won't be able to always sweep everything out, and there will frequently be many hours between shots... so a lot of grinds staling where I can't get at them concerns me.

zin1953 wrote:In the FWIW Dept., if you check out the Mahlkönig USA website (different than the link above), and then click on "Specials" at the top of the page, you can often find a K30 Vario that was used at a trade show for substantially less -- approx. the price of a K10 WBC. Just a thought.

Now that is very interesting. I didn't realize demo units were available. I briefly considered the K30 Vario because I think it's a nice looking grinder, it's fast, and in the videos it sounds pretty quiet. I was concerned (besides the price, which now seems less of an issue) that like other flat-burr grinders I might spend more time and coffee adjusting grind than I'd like to at home. You don't find that to be the case?

I've spent all day reading posts about the K30, and I've seen conflicting information about retention of grinds. How much does yours tend to retain?

Of course, now I'm thinking hell, as long as I'm considering spending $1600 on a grinder, why not make it $2000 and get a Nino?

Ken Fox wrote:If you are considering getting a large "Titan-like" grinder for your home, for the same amount of money or perhaps a little more, you could get TWO Maxs, which will fit under kitchen counters and will afford the easy option of having at least 2 or three coffees available on a daily basis without having to operate the grinder for single dosing.

Oh, wow... a dedicated decaf/other blend grinder. Now that does sound nice. I was pretty much decided on getting a K30 demo or Nino, but now you've gone and made this complicated again.

It's not a yard sale, it's a grinder. In a year, you won't even remember the great or awful deal you got. You will however be happy or stuck with whatever you get.

So get real -- make a list of the coffees and prep styles you are going to drink each week (real world, not in a "maybe once I have the grinder of my dreams" world). Figure in counter space, waking people up at four in the morning etc. Now pick a grinder or grinders that will do the job well.

another_jim wrote:It's not a yard sale, it's a grinder. In a year, you won't even remember the great or awful deal you got. You will however be happy or stuck with whatever you get.

Man, gunning for another Quotable Quote, are you? I love it. It's so so true.

And speaking of how much this isn't a yard sale, I'd take a lesson from Ryan (portamento) if I had my sights set on the Cimbali Max Hybrid but wasn't sure about it (full disclosure: I haven't used one but I am 99.9% sure I would hate its ergonomics). The CMH is so darn cheap compared to the other players that if you think it might fit, it'd behoove you to buy one with a 30-day guarantee and give it a shot. You can always take it back and upgrade if you hate it. You probably won't get the same deal with the bigger titans, as they are (price-wise) much more full-on commercial equipment usually subject to a no-returns policy (or a HUGE ding in the form of a re-stocking fee if you do return it).

The Max has a difficult grind path to clean out compared to the K30. The K30 retains some grinds right at the point where the coffee is ejected at the top into the chute. It was very easy to push it out with a short grind to clear and toss. The newer mod may take care of that. I really liked that grinder (burrs and all!).

The Max was a whole different kettle of fish. If I really wanted to get it cleaned out I had 2 choices. One was to do the same but with a larger amount of beans, or take my Dyson and suck out all the old bits from the top. I could swear I got at least a double out of there. I had to stop doing the vacuum method since the coffee residue was ruining my vacuum (smelled like rotten beans). Then of course there was the space between the top and the burrs. That was an easy fix though with the chopped off water bottle.

I didn't know there was a K10 doserless. I prefer them to the thwakity, thwack in my home but I would want to know if there was a static issue that would cause coffee boulders.

Lockman wrote:The Max has a difficult grind path to clean out compared to the K30.

The Max was a whole different kettle of fish. If I really wanted to get it cleaned out I had 2 choices. One was to do the same but with a larger amount of beans, or take my Dyson and suck out all the old bits from the top. I could swear I got at least a double out of there. I had to stop doing the vacuum method since the coffee residue was ruining my vacuum (smelled like rotten beans). Then of course there was the space between the top and the burrs. That was an easy fix though with the chopped off water bottle.

I didn't know there was a K10 doserless. I prefer them to the thwakity, thwack in my home but I would want to know if there was a static issue that would cause coffee boulders.

I guess I just don't understand this "issue."

What I do with my Max's (I have 3; 2 original ones and one "Chris Hybrid") is that if I am changing coffees then I use the little bit of coffee that is left in the hopper throat to make a milk drink, where the grind and pour characteristics are less important. Generally then I will end up with maybe 5-10 grams of coffee that is left over. I grind this through in pulses and use a chop stick a couple of times (when the machine is NOT grinding) to dislodge the 2 or 3 beans that might be accessible on the "shelf" above the burrs to grind those through as well. I clean out the chute going from the burrs to the doser with the same chop stick, which is very easy to do once you have removed the finger guard (or the autogrind flapper door in the case of the original autogrinding Max).

Now it is true that the design of the Cimbali Max (and Junior) does leave a few beans on a shelf on the periphery of the grind burrs. Most of these beans are not easily accessible and once the available space is filled, they stay where they are. These beans collect early on in the life of the grinder and unless you move the grinder around or invert it, those beans are not going to mix into the shots that you make. Perhaps Cimbali could have designed that aspect of the grinder better, but I can tell you that you are not going to get those old beans in your coffee unless you do something with the grinder that it is not designed for, such as moving it around constantly off level and/ or inverting it. This all fits in with some practices that I find bizarre in the home user community, such as constantly disassembling these large commercial grinders in an effort to "clean them." If one does that, one will find beans constantly accumulating on that "shelf" area, however I don't see that as being the sort of thing that this grinder was designed to do or have done to it, rather I see it as more of a manifestation of OCD disorder.

From shot to shot where I have a bean column over the grinder throat, not changing the coffees, all I do is to grind what I want for a shot including the grinds in the chute which I salvage (e.g. use) in the shot. Doing this I have as close to zero waste per shot as with any grinder I have ever used, and way less than with my Compak K10. Each morning or after a period of non-use of a Max which is longer than a few hours, I'll pulse a couple of grams of coffee through to clean out the interstices between the burrs, the voids in the grind path, and the doser. I also use a grinder brush in the doser from time to time.

As has been stated umpteen times, the Max is very ill-suited to the use pattern of someone who wants to single shot dose, changing coffees constantly. But for someone who keeps the same kind of coffee in the grinder for at least a couple of days (or more) the waste and cleaning efforts on this grinder are quite minimal.

ken

Ken Fox wrote:As has been stated umpteen times, the Max is very ill-suited to the use pattern of someone who wants to single shot dose, changing coffees constantly. But for someone who keeps the same kind of coffee in the grinder for at least a couple of days (or more) the waste and cleaning efforts on this grinder are quite minimal.

Agreed.

If I were to consider either one of these, i would opt for the K10. Having 0 experience with the CMH I just find the look revolting. My experience with many doserless models has been very disappointing. Every one to date has resulted in a need to further distribute the grinds via the "weiss method" thus negating the benefit of not having the doser. Although I never pulled a shot with the K10 doserless, i did see one in action at last years SCAA expo in Atlanta and was very impressed - reasonably fast grind, quite, and virtually no clumps.

Aesthetics IS important. After all, it's going to be in your kitchen. It's a definite consideration.

That said, having lots of experience with the CMH (though not as much as Ken), I can honestly say I'm very happy with my grinder -- both in terms of its construction/build quality, and in terms of the quality of the ground coffee it gives me. I continue to wholeheartedly recommend it . . . IF it suits your "coffee regimen."

I, too, have no hands-on experience with a Compak K10, but if you add 20, that's another grinder I can enthusiastically recommend.

Cheers,
Jason

Another satisfied CMH owner here. With a couple mods, its great "bang for the buck" also becomes "easy to live with." The exit chute on mine is simple to get to because I removed the finger-guard/coffee deflector. I just attached a piece of plastic to the lid, pointing downward, to deflect ground coffee downward (instead of spraying all over inside the doser). The exit chute is now completely accessible, and a snap to sweep out.

Another mod I did minimized the volume between the hopper and burrs. And yes, it works great too.

Next up is to quiet it down a bit. On my Cunill Tranquilo, which in its stock form, is anything but tranquil, I lined the inside of the body with Dynamat (designed for automobile sound insulation). That combined with a small rubber gasket between the body and dosing funnel has made it a significantly quieter grinder. I'm thinking that a bit of Dynamat on the inside of the CMH body will prevent it from resonating, making it much quieter. I'll report back when I'm done.

Thanks for all the input. I finally made a decision and hopefully my grinder should be here in a day or two.

The aesthetics and ergonomics of the CMH really disqualified it for my use. Ken's suggestion of buying two made a lot of sense and eliminated many of my concerns, so I came close to doing that, but in the end the design and noise level just seemed like it would become tiresome. The WBC seemed the best option after that, since the schnozz on the doserless is going to make it a pain to sweep. But the WBC would still leave me dealing with a doser when I really don't have a use for one. In the end I found myself thinking about moving up another class and just buying a Nino. Having to rewire or have a transformer, questions about firmware versions and the difficulty of upgrades I couldn't seem to get answered convinced me that it probably wasn't the best decision right now.

So I ended up taking Jason's suggestion and getting a K30 Vario demo unit. I know, I know... it's not even a conical and that what I started this whole thread to ask about. However, everyone seems very pleased with them, and the ergonomics fit my needs better than any of the conicals I looked at, other than the Nino. The grind retention seems low and easy to clear, which was a big concern for me. I'm sure I'll eventually want a second grinder, so maybe I'll get a Nino then.

Good choice!

Be sure to open her up before you use it and check the motor, cap and shock mounts by pulling the motor out. It is easy to do if you line up the stop in the bolt hole after removing.
If you are luckier than me it will not be an issue. If it is, it could do more damage by running it.
Mine still worked but I but I could tell something was wrong by the fact that the burrs were locked up at 3.

I hope you get the "newer" version. If not, you can upgrade it if clumping is an issue.

Enjoy!

Ken Fox wrote:to make a milk drink, where the grind and pour characteristics are less important.

You mean that they're less important to *you*, right? ; >

My preferred drink tends to be a classic competition styled cappuccino with both shots in it instead of just the one. If the whole thing gets to six ounces, I lose interest. A poorly pulled doppio in that is like a rotten berry in my fruit salad. It's no longer that one rotten berry, but the whole bowl that's off.

Chris,

I prefer my caps in the same fashion as you. You are not alone:D

Cheers,
Jackson