Hello everyone!

I am a complete newbie...but I am jumping in head first. On Nov 1st I start a fairly elaborate fit out of a 2500 square foot building here in Coopersburg, PA (next to bethlehem) for a 1950's style homemade ice cream / coffee shop. In our town (and on the road with 28,000 cars a day) there is NOWHERE to get coffee or ice cream. We need to travel almost 7 miles to the closest shop. In addition, this shop will be up against the 45 acre sports complex where there is always some type of kids sporting activity and lots of parents looking for coffee!

So....I am a custom home builder, so I will be handling all of the retrofit in this very cool freestanding 1950's building. We are doing the cliche' 50's theme with red booths, black and white floor, and a funky 50's living room for lounging and sipping coffee.

My wife, who will be leaving her CPA/corporate career is going to run the place, and we already have a great employee pool to choose from (and they are 30-40 year old stay at home moms looking to work 2-3 days a week.)

Now that I bored you with the details, I want to tell you where I need a little bit of help from the experts! My wife and I are coffee nuts. Been to Europe tons of times...drink it everywhere. I know a good cup and a bad cup, and I cringe everytime someone in our old fashioned diner coffee drinking town says "eXpesso, isn't that burnt coffee? I don't like espresso." (x emphasized.) We have a new starbucks 7 miles away with 12 wooden chairs, nowhere to sit...and it is still busy. but we really need something here in coopersburg.

So...I have been gathering, reading, ordering dvd's, working in a friend's little coffee shop with an old faema to educate myself...but I have a long way to go!

I plan on getting our machine soon so that we can set it up here at my house and play with it for a few months. (i know...I need different power...but I am a homebuilder, so I can easily do that.) Believe it or not...I even have 3 phase here at my crazy house!


So...I am looking for a machine that is NOT a super automatic, but something that can make a great shot with someone who has been well trained, but maybe won't be a career barista.

And finally....I am not the guy who buys a car based on color, but we are really making this place look amazing with the 50's styling, so I want a machine that makes people (including the one who don't know much about espresso) go HOLY CRAP. I swear pretty machines help people enjoy the coffee even more!

After my exhaustive search (I looked at all the big ones, faema, marzocca, Rancilio, etc etc)

I have 2 that I think are great performing machines and also have the amazing styling we want for this shop. Keep in mind, I know that I could get a machine that costs less and may perform better, but styling is really important to this overall design. (sorry about that.)

The 2 I have narrowed it down to (2 head units...maybe 3, but most likely 2, both automatic):

The Elektra Classic:
Amazing styling. Literally made for a 1950's decor. Can handle slightly taller cups (not a huge deal for me) and the specs seem great. Elektra obviously has a good name.
Roughly, my cost for the 1950's styled beauty is $10,500k.
http://www.elektrasrl.com/classic_2gr_el_bl.php

The kees van der westen mirage.
wow. this thing is beautiful. might be a little contemporary looking from behind, but still striking. The appearance, although not as perfect 1950's, will make a statement. Just not sure if the styling is as good for the 50's them..although the "atomic" look works.
A 2 head machine here will cost me closer to $7500, so this is a solid $3k.
This also has the ability to add preinfusion, which I don't think the elektra does.
http://www.keesvanderwesten.com/mirage-duette-classic.html


Final point, we have a local service guy who works on faema and Rancilio. He probably could work on others, but those are his specialties. Also, in my granite company with massive machines from italy, we fix them ourselves. So I am pretty good with working on complicated waterjets and crazy machines. simple stuff I could easily handle. But...this is a concern. the mirage dealer is 2 hours away. Elektra is the same.

Sorry for the crazy rambling, but I wanted to give you a little info. Does anyone have any opinions of ease of operation, styling, overall functionality of these 2?

thanks in advance. (ps. we do plan on taking the appropriate barista training courses)

2 of our sites: homebuilding ishttp://www.monogramcustomhomes.com
temporary page for ice cream and coffee is http://www.theinsidescoop.com


Tony c

Either would likely be fine cool looking HX workhorse machines, don't have direct experience with either just by their reputations. Do have esperience with other commercial HX machines.

You mentioned checking out La Marzcocco's. How closely did you checkout the FB80 AV? PID'd dual boiler LM's are easier to dial in and consistently nail shot temps whether a long line of customers hammering shots out fast or walking up to idle machine. Cost a bit more but their cutting edge technology is worth it IMO. And the FB80 styling would likely fit well in your decor, available either metalic red or metalic antique blue. Styling is important, but what's in the cup is more important and the FB80 would be no compromise in the cup. If I was buying for your shop it would be my number one contender. FWIW I have a 3gr PID'd LM Linea in my Cafe and recently picked up a 4gr Linea that's being rebuilt for future 2nd location.

Have you started researching your grinders yet? Without good grinders espresso machine is worthless. The La Marzocco Swift may be a good solution for you not requiring quite the level of barista skill yet high performer.

Thanks for the reply. I did not start looking at grinders yet...that is next on the list. I do really like the LM80, and the price is certainly within my range. I just keep getting drawn back to the 2 I mentioned because of their beauty. And your point is well taken. A pretty machine and a lousy cup of coffee certainly will not work as well for us as a mediocre looking machine that makes great coffee! I guess I am trying to find the best of both worlds...or close to it!

acaciolo wrote:A pretty machine and a lousy cup of coffee certainly will not work as well for us as a mediocre looking machine that makes great coffee!

That is NOT a concern with EITHER of these machines. I've had great shots for both.

I have a 1-gr Elektra in my home ("Sixties" T1), but I adore van der Westen's machines. Until a few months ago, he didn't produce a 1-gr. machine, so I was forced to give up all thoughts of one of his, and I am very happy with my Elektra! That said, I certainly appreciate your dilemma. But you are looking at two excellent machines. Both are very well made; both are very beautiful! You will not go wrong either way. Honest. BUT . . . before making the decision, I would look into service: how easy will it be to get repair work done? who will do it? what experience do they have working with this machine? etc. For me, that would be a major factor to consider . . .

Also, while I would look at the La Marzocco Swift, I am not sure I wouldn't go with the Mahlkönig K60 ES (also sometimes known as the K30 "Twin") . . .

Cheers and Best of Luck!

Jason

That is NOT a concern with EITHER of these machines. I've had great shots for both.

Indeed both machines are capable of greats shots with proper temp managament. However, it IS a concern with both machines and the preponderance of HX machines. Read what he wrote. His intended labor pool will be trained but part time mom's not people looking to be professional baristas. See it all the time. Walk up to idle machine, build PF and pull shot with NO flush resulting in scalded bitter shot. It is the norm not exception. Granted 30 to 40yr old mom's may be more likely to pay attention to shot procedure details than a teenager simultaneously checking their lastest text msg.

The huge advantage of the double boiler La Marzocco type machines is the separate stable brew boiler plus the saturated group for relatively consistent shot temp whether idle or hammering shot after shot after shot.

Yes, Mike, and if you use a swift you don't have to bother tamping, either! BUT . . . he also said he's not looking for a superauto, so where you (or in this case, he) draws the line is a judgement call, is it not?

BUT . . . he also said he's not looking for a superauto, so where you (or in this case, he) draws the line is a judgement call, is it not?

???What does temperature stable double boiler machines like a Synesso or La Marzocco have to do with superauto's???

Agreed the Swift grinder eliminates a number of traditional barista steps and I wouldn't want to use one personally. But it's even been used in some top Third (or even Fourth) Wave Shops for quality control and consistency UNTIL their staff is well experienced. We are not talking home use where a lot of error and waste or long learning curves is desirable or acceptable.

Keep 'em coming! Our discussion will help him learn some of what he doesn't know. (He did say he has zero experience IIRC.)

Tony, Mike's advice seems quite sound. In addition, that LM he mentions looks great, and would fit your decor nicely. The easier a machine is to use, the better for you and your staff.

I think you need to find some shops with these machines and check them out.

I think you need to take me with you!

acaciolo wrote:Thanks for the reply. I did not start looking at grinders yet...that is next on the list. I do really like the LM80, and the price is certainly within my range. I just keep getting drawn back to the 2 I mentioned because of their beauty. And your point is well taken. A pretty machine and a lousy cup of coffee certainly will not work as well for us as a mediocre looking machine that makes great coffee! I guess I am trying to find the best of both worlds...or close to it!

If you can find a shop with a FB80 and see it for real, not just a picture, me thinks you won't feel it's mediocre looking at all, quite the opposite. I do agree the Elektra is quite retro cool, but I personally place a higher factor on performance over looks. Indeed how a machine looks is important, how it performs is paramount.

Again not saying an Elektra is anything but a very capable machine, simply that the LM FB80 would be easier to achieve consistency. OTOH if you're dead set on the Elektra for it's looks and are willing to learn to properly manage it's temperature and are willing to teach and ensure and monitor every person you have working behind it go for it.

But you have to keep check on your barista's techniques anyway. I have one guy with a number of years experience who I caught a possible bad habit today. He built the PF, locked it in the group, THEN grabbed the milk from the fridge and poured the pitcher, finally started the shot then started steaming letting the coffee bake while it's locked in the PF waiting to be pulled! Saw him do it once today while I was roasting and talked to him about. I'm not sure he understands how adament I am he never do that again. He said he'll sometimes set the PF down but thought that was worse and didn't want to pull the shot too soon and have the crema die. I said neither is acceptable. One way bakes the grinds the other the PF is allowed to cool off more. Once the PF is built immediately pull the shot period. Learn to use the appropriate steaming tip. He's been steaming 16oz lattes on the restricted tip! Even steaming for 16oz latte I can start the pull, then pour the milk and steam and finish steaming about the same time the shot is ready to stop. That's if using the Linea's stock much faster tip which does take more practice. The EPNW restricted tip on the other steam wand (which I have primarily for mach's and capp's but is also easier to learn on) steaming for 16oz latte takes longer than the pull, 12oz latte if you have the milk already poured then build the PF and start the pull so you can immediately start steaming it's about a tie finishing steaming and ending shot. He'll get used to this machine, while he has a number of years experience he's only been with me two weeks. Until ready to use the faster tip without making bubbles solution simple, always pour the milk then build the shot for larger milk beverages. One big thing is don't open the steam valve all the way on the sucker unless you're steaming a half gallon of milk at a time like Charbucks did with these Lineas!!!

Hmmm rambling a bit but appropo since having different tips on the wands can be very beneficial for steaming different amounts of milk to keep production pace without sacrificing milk texture quality. So more good info' for a newbie.

miKe mcKoffee wrote:But you have to keep check on your barista's techniques anyway.

Oh. So you mean he stlll has to pay attention to what his staff does???

OK, Mike: yes, a dual-boiler machine eliminates one variable, and would be easier for an untrained "newbie" to pull a shot . . . However, an LM FB80 is no guarantee of great coffee. No machine is. It's still the barista who's making the drinks, not the machine. (At least the OP knows not to get a superauto!)

mike mcKoffee wrote:Again not saying an Elektra is anything but a very capable machine, simply that the LM FB80 would be easier to achieve consistency. OTOH if you're dead set on the Elektra for it's looks and are willing to learn to properly manage it's temperature and are willing to teach and ensure and monitor every person you have working behind it go for it.

But, honestly, don't you have to do that anyway? You have an LM in your shop, right? (Linea 3-gr.?) And as you illustrate in your post, you have to monitor your employees, too.

Either way, however, I would get an automatic (volumetric) machine. It's too easy for employees to get distracted, and if you ARE focused, you can always shut off the pour manually, but at least you won't pull a five ounce double when the phone rings . . .

Looks alone: Elektra Barlume, followed by the Mirage Duette. But the La Marzocco FB80 should fit the decor as well.
Quality of shots: all three are equal.
Ease of use by novice: the LM FB80.
Service: dunno