I'm searching for my first grinder for espresso. I'll be making a few espressos a day as well as cappuccinos & macchiatos.

My initial choice after all the reading I've done was a Baratza Forté AP. It is a quality grinder and I like that you can dose by time or weight. After reading some more I'm starting to lean more towards a larger burr conical grinder. I think the taste in the cup will be more important to me than the feature (I already have a decent 500g scale). The Compak K10 is a solid grinder and there are plenty of people here that have had a great experience. Additionally, the Compak E10 on-demand grinder looks promising for functionality if I wanted to forgo a manual doser.

Here are my real concerns:

1) Stepping up from ~$800 with the Forté to ~$1500 with the Compak K10 --- is the price increase (essentially double) worth the difference in the cup? A very subjective question, I know, but it is likely that 'upgrade-itis' would take hold and I'd want to upgrade to a Titan class grinder at some point regardless once I start pulling some decent shots.

2) The decent cafes around here (Las Vegas, so there aren't very many!) all use on-demand grinders. So I have no experience or way to really play around with a grinder with a mechanical doser. Considering that I've never heard a complaint about using a mechanical doser, is it any more inconvenient than an on-demand grinder? If I'm going to upgrade my price-point to the K10 then I feel the E10 is within reach. Is it worth it to spend the couple extra $$$ for the convenience on the E10?

Any advice or experience would be greatly appreciated!

Thanks

Joe Fish

Overkill - how many were you thinking of getting 5? I have 3: one for light roast, one for medium and one for decaf. Just kidding, but you won't find many around here to tell you it is overkill.

The Forte, the Vario, and the Mazzer Mini are all overkill in some sense, and I don't think the K10 is any more absurd than those. It is all relative.

Is it better in the cup? I haven't used the Forte, but compared to a Vario or a Super Jolly, for example, the best shot on a K10 not be that much better, but it is easier to get a very good shot on the K10 because it is more forgiving of user error. I would imagine the Forte would be more like the the Vario than the K10 in the cup, but that is just a guess.

Note that people here often prefer the large conicals, but you can make great shots off of cheaper grinders so reading about them may make them seem a more dramatic step up than they really are. I bought a used Super Jolly when it bested a K10 and a Robur in a taste test at Counter Culture years ago. I think pretty much everyone there thought the Super Jolly pulled the best shots that day. That said I did eventually "upgrade" to a K10 when I got a great deal on one and have never looked back because it made dialing in for changing beans etc easier.

As for on demand vs doser that is mostly personal preference some people strongly prefer one some the other, but great shots can be pulled at home on either. I am a doser guy - the interface isn't as nice, but the shots are just as good and there is very little waste. If they were the same price I'm not sure which one I'd pick, but it still probably would be the doser (my ideal would be a doser with a great timer built in, but not so much that I've bothered to add one as an aftermarket addition).

Good luck, I don't think you can go wrong with either model.

NO! A K10 isn't overkill. How dare you suggest such a thing!

I had a Vario for a year and really liked the grinder. Unlike many on the forums I found the Vario to be a reliable and easy to adjust grinder.
When I had a good opportunity for a K10 I jumped at it. Personally, I find the K10 far surpasses a Vario in the cup. I get flavors that I couldn't pull out of the beans before with the Vario on the same bag in side to side test shots. (Not blind testing, but it was pretty obvious that I didn't have to search for flavors with the K10 while the Vario left me guessing if that flavor noted from the roaster was actually in those beans.)

Compak K10 isn't the only quality conical grinder out there. Doser or no-doser is a common question, but I don't mind my doser at all.

If you are into hand grinding then the HG-One is a manual grinder that does well with single doses at a price closer to your Forte.

da gino wrote:Is it better in the cup? I haven't used the Forte, but compared to a Vario or a Super Jolly, for example, the best shot on a K10 not be that much better, but it is easier to get a very good shot on the K10 because it is more forgiving of user error. I would imagine the Forte would be more like the the Vario than the K10 in the cup, but that is just a guess.

I'd like to purchase a grinder that I will grow into, and this would be only for espresso I'm sure even a Vario would produce good results once I get the hang of all the techniques needed. I can really appreciate the K10/E10 being user friendly and consistent, which is why I think the extra $$ can be justified.

DanoM wrote:When I had a good opportunity for a K10 I jumped at it. Personally, I find the K10 far surpasses a Vario in the cup. I get flavors that I couldn't pull out of the beans before with the Vario on the same bag in side to side test shots. (Not blind testing, but it was pretty obvious that I didn't have to search for flavors with the K10 while the Vario left me guessing if that flavor noted from the roaster was actually in those beans.)

Compak K10 isn't the only quality conical grinder out there. Doser or no-doser is a common question, but I don't mind my doser at all.

If you are into hand grinding then the HG-One is a manual grinder that does well with single doses at a price closer to your Forte.

I'm not looking for a manual grinder, but if I ever do I've read a lot on the HG One and it looks very impressive. I am aware that the K10 isn't the only conical grinder in that class and price-point, but it's definitely a good place to start as far as figuring out what class of hardware I should be looking into.

I'm still unsure on the doser vs. doser-less debacle. I know either will be more than adequate, it's simply whether or not there is a clear advantage towards spending an extra couple hundred $$ on an E10 vs a K10.

Thanks to both of you for the information! It was very helpful

Fluffeepuff wrote:I'm still unsure on the doser vs. doser-less debacle. I know either will be more than adequate, it's simply whether or not there is a clear advantage towards spending an extra couple hundred $$ on an E10 vs a K10.

remember that doserless versions usually require a heck of a lot more purging than dosered versions--on the order of 5-10 g per espresso session. this was a dealbreaker for me, so i decided to look only into dosered versions when upgrading my grinder.

Overkill is not tangible. and no one on this website is going to tell you a better grinder is anything but the best idea possible.

The Vario IS a good grinder. I own one, have had it for quite a while. If thats what your budget dictates, it will work just fine and make good coffee.

If your budget can handle a K10, you should get one. Or get a large flat burr grinder, specifically the Mazzer Major or Anfim Super Camaino. I had a mazzer major for a long time before I got the K10, and the difference between the big conical and the big flat isn't better or worse, its 6 of one, half dozen of the other. They both are really easy to get great shots with.. Like auto mode easy. Would definitely like to have another large flat grinder like the Mazzer or Anfim, but I wouldnt sell my K10 to fund that. Id like both.


And I personally thing, barring one or two exceptions, dosered is the way to go. Much less waste potential and overall neater, IMO.

Overkill?
Under some circumstances. You need the room, big conics have big footprints and -- if you're going to operate them with their hoppers on -- are very tall.

You also need a competent espresso machine. By "competent," I not only mean capable of pulling a good shot with your best and most focused technique, but with enough forgiveness and production capacity to reflect your reality. A big conic is probably not a good match with a Crossland CC1 for instance; but might be with a Breville BDB 920XL.

Although the grinder contributes more to an espresso system's character than the machine (once you've reached a certain level of machine), it's still a system and both machines are important.

Compak?
Compak is a good maker of big conics, but not the only good maker. On this forum, their popularity is partly a function of the K10 PB's (a) particular suitability for single dosing; and (b) price compared to Mazzer conics. If you're seriously interested in a big conic, you're not doing yourself any favors by arbitrarily cutting the universe down to one brand. At least look at Ceado, Macap and Mazzer in terms of features and price. When it comes to performance, the premium brands are all about the same.

Conic or Flat?
It's already been suggested that you look at the big flats as a possibility as well. There are certainly some good ones. For pure, "in the cup" performance -- setting aside the EK43 -- there are several excellent performers. However, there is a difference; and in my opinion the big conics -- again, setting aside the EK43 -- provide a better flavor spectrum than flats or hybrids. But that's just an opinion.

FWW, I don't have enough experience (like "any") with the EK43 to have an opinion. I only know what I read.

Mechanical Doser or On-Demand?
"Doserless" is something of a misnomer. Modern, "on-demand" grinders definitely dose -- they just don't hang a mechanical, sweep-doser off the front of the machine -- like a nose -- to do it.

I have two grinders at home. One, a Ceado E92, is on demand, the other, a La Cimbali Junior Max Hybrid, has a good, mechanical doser. I prefer using the Ceado because it grinds better tasting shots and is easier to maintain, not because it lacks a doser. A good doser isn't a problem.

Retention
When you consider retention, the real issue isn't doser vs on-demand but single dosing by weight vs hopper feed. Big conics have big grind chambers. You run them out when you single dose by weight, so -- providing the chutes are well designed -- there's little retention. However, the mechanics of hopper feeding are such that there's always a bunch of partly ground stuck between the burrs, and some fully ground grinds on the chamber floor every time the grinder's stopped.

The smaller the bean fragment, the quicker it stales. The higher the proportion of stale beans in a given dose, the more likely the dose is to taste stale. Part of using a hopper-fed, big conic, is clearing enough stale detritus before a session or after a long idle so the subsequent shots taste fresh.

With my Ceado that means clearing about 12g every morning if I'm using the machine daily; and 4 or 5g if the grinder's idled more than an hour.

Single Dosing By Weight or On Demand Timed Dosing?
It's a complicated issue. All I'm going to say here is that if you're going to single dose, you can do it with an on-demand grinder but you've spent a lot of money on electronics for no very good reason. Try and figure the issue out before buying.

Messiness and Other "Use" Characteristics
Again, not a question of "doser vs "doserless." It depends on the particular grinder. A K10 PB may be neater than a Vario, but my Ceado is neater than my Cimbali. It's also more user friendly in every other way, except that its speed and the size of its grind chamber mean that it takes more beans to dial in and ensure freshness.

If you're very worried about "wasting" a couple of ounces of beans every time you do a from scratch dial in (after cleaning, say), and another half to full ounce daily to ensure freshness, you don't want a hopper fed, on demand big conic.

Hope this helps,
Rich

boar_d_laze wrote: If you're very worried about "wasting" a couple of ounces of beans every time you do a from scratch dial in (after cleaning, say), and another half to full ounce daily to ensure freshness, you don't want a hopper fed, on demand big conic.

If you are only pulling a couple shots a day; say one in the morning & one in the afternoon, you'd be purging the grinder twice each day. At this rate you would be throwing away close to half of every bag of coffee you buy or roast. If that doesn't bother you go with a hopper fed or On Demand style grinder. If it does get a grinder suitable to single dosing like the K10 P/B.

Joe,

If I could throw out an option for you ... if your finances allow, buy both the Forte AP AND the K10 from a place that has a Buyer's Remorse Policy so you can easily return the one you decide NOT to keep. You'll lose shipping costs each way on whatever grinder you decide to return; on the Forte that's maybe ~$30, and on the Compak figure more than double that. BUT, you will have up to 30 days to use both in your home, on your machine, and during various times of the day to see which one fits YOU best.

While many of us here can taste the difference, there are some who cannot. If you are a newbie, the coffee you'll be pulling should be light-years ahead of what you've previously had at home, so the difference between the Forte and K10 might fly right over your head. And if so, why spend the extra money? If you can taste the difference, go for the big conical. Regardless of what you decide, you've made the best choice for YOU.

Cheers!
Merle

sqroot3 wrote:remember that doserless versions usually require a heck of a lot more purging than dosered versions--on the order of 5-10 g per espresso session. this was a dealbreaker for me, so i decided to look only into dosered versions when upgrading my grinder.

What do you mean by purging? My understanding is that both doser & on-demand grinders will have some remaining grinds in the shoot, but will a doser-less grinder have a more substantial amount? Or am I misunderstanding your point?

JmanEspresso wrote:If your budget can handle a K10, you should get one. Or get a large flat burr grinder, specifically the Mazzer Major or Anfim Super Camaino. I had a mazzer major for a long time before I got the K10, and the difference between the big conical and the big flat isn't better or worse, its 6 of one, half dozen of the other. They both are really easy to get great shots with.. Like auto mode easy. Would definitely like to have another large flat grinder like the Mazzer or Anfim, but I wouldnt sell my K10 to fund that. Id like both.

I had the chance to see an Anfim Camaino in action and was impressed. The Super Camaino is definitely an option and within my increased price point range. I can pretty much guarantee I'd be happy with either a large flat grinder or conical grinder. It's more going to come down to usability, affordability, and looks (for instance, I really don't find Mazzers attractive... I've seen a SJ and Major in person and really wasn't feeling it).

JmanEspresso wrote:And I personally thing, barring one or two exceptions, dosered is the way to go. Much less waste potential and overall neater, IMO.

I guess I'm not understanding why going with a doser is less waste. I'll still be brushing grinds out of the shoot into the doser when I grind. What am I missing?

boar_d_laze wrote:Although the grinder contributes more to an espresso system's character than the machine (once you've reached a certain level of machine), it's still a system and both machines are important.

I probably should have mentioned it earlier, but at the moment I'm leaning towards a QM Vetrano 2B, with the Izzo Alex Duetto 3.0 close behind.

boar_d_laze wrote:If you're seriously interested in a big conic, you're not doing yourself any favors by arbitrarily cutting the universe down to one brand. At least look at Ceado, Macap and Mazzer in terms of features and price. When it comes to performance, the premium brands are all about the same.

My intention wasn't to limit myself to the Compak conics but I can see that's how my original post came off. I'm definitely going to look more into all of the big conic contemporaries and see what would work best for me. The dimensions of the K10/E10 with the short hopper are perfect for my planned setup, and the grinders are quality and reliable. I've read the TGP once, it's time to read it again!

boar_d_laze wrote:FWW, I don't have enough experience (like "any") with the EK43 to have an opinion. I only know what I read.

... Those are some big burrs!!!!!!

boar_d_laze wrote:The smaller the bean fragment, the quicker it stales. The higher the proportion of stale beans in a given dose, the more likely the dose is to taste stale. Part of using a hopper-fed, big conic, is clearing enough stale detritus before a session or after a long idle so the subsequent shots taste fresh.

With my Ceado that means clearing about 12g every morning if I'm using the machine daily; and 4 or 5g if the grinder's idled more than an hour.

Are you suggesting that your Ceado requires more clearing out than your La Cimbali? Or were you just providing an example.

boar_d_laze wrote:It's a complicated issue. All I'm going to say here is that if you're going to single dose, you can do it with an on-demand grinder but you've spent a lot of money on electronics for no very good reason. Try and figure the issue out before buying.

You bring up a very, very good point. I was planning to single dose.... but keep in mind I want to control as many variables as possible to learn the proper techniques as I develop the necessary skills and magics of the craft to create a great espresso. I'm genuinely not sure if I'd prefer to always single dose, or not. Thanks for giving me something to think about!

boar_d_laze wrote:If you're very worried about "wasting" a couple of ounces of beans every time you do a from scratch dial in (after cleaning, say), and another half to full ounce daily to ensure freshness, you don't want a hopper fed, on demand big conic.

JohnB. wrote:If you are only pulling a couple shots a day; say one in the morning & one in the afternoon, you'd be purging the grinder twice each day. At this rate you would be throwing away close to half of every bag of coffee you buy or roast. If that doesn't bother you go with a hopper fed or On Demand style grinder. If it does get a grinder suitable to single dosing like the K10 P/B.

I'm not concerned with wasting grinds or purging for freshness, but why will an on-demand conic require running more grinds through it than conic with a doser? Why can't I single dose with an E10 like I would on a K10??

uscfroadie wrote:If I could throw out an option for you ... if your finances allow, buy both the Forte AP AND the K10 from a place that has a Buyer's Remorse Policy so you can easily return the one you decide NOT to keep. You'll lose shipping costs each way on whatever grinder you decide to return; on the Forte that's maybe ~$30, and on the Compak figure more than double that. BUT, you will have up to 30 days to use both in your home, on your machine, and during various times of the day to see which one fits YOU best.

While many of us here can taste the difference, there are some who cannot. If you are a newbie, the coffee you'll be pulling should be light-years ahead of what you've previously had at home, so the difference between the Forte and K10 might fly right over your head. And if so, why spend the extra money? If you can taste the difference, go for the big conical. Regardless of what you decide, you've made the best choice for YOU.

I actually really like that advice. Yes, I'm a newbie and have only had espresso from shops in town and the local roaster, and I already know I don't have the vocabulary to properly express what I'm tasting. I can express tastes such as bitter, bright, acidic, chocolate, and earthy notes, but aside from those I can't currently discern much else. I'm still leaning towards a big flat burr or large conic simply because I know the cup will have all of the different notes I'll be looking to try and experience, and with time, different coffess, practice, and drinking lots of espresso, I'm confident I'll be able to better appreciate all of the flavors that make up that wonderful little drink!


Thanks all to have contributed to the information thus far!! It has been extremely helpful and there is lots of good information that I hadn't been considering before.

I was also wondering if anyone has had any experience with the Nuova Simonelli Mythos? It's a 75mm flat burr grinder and there is one up for a great price in my local area on craigslist. I'm aware of some of the potential dangers of buying used and deals that are too good to be true

Joe Fish