Hi everyone. This is my first post. I've been lurking for a couple months. You are all obsessed - my kind of people! I'd sure appreciate your opinions. I'll first tell you a bit about my current equipment, the new setup, and likes/dislikes, then I'd sure like to hear what you would recommend.

Current equipment: La Pavoni Professional and grinder. I have had 18 years of mainly weekend use. Pressure switch is starting to get tired, but I'm still nursing it along. My favorite drink is normally a double with about an ounce of steamed half-n-half. AM and mid-afternoon drinks for me, plus whatever my wife and kid wants (normally lattes). Not real high volume except for the occasional breakfast party, though I expect to keep the new machine forever. Maybe I'll get rid of the half-n-half if my shots get better (yes, I have the barista's handbook on order!)

We're redoing our kitchen, and would like to build in conditioned water and drain and appropriate power for a permanent setup. My wife gave me the blessing to basically get what I want as long as it looks good and I can live with myself

Here's what I think so far about a couple machines:
Cimbali DT1. Pro: Well made. Good looking (we've seen one and my wife likes it as it reminds us of the many cafes in Rome we've visited). Good coffee. Con: Hx design is less precise than a PID/dual boiler machine (though the Hx itself doesn't particularly intimidate me).
Marzocco GS3 Pro: Seems like it has everything needed to tinker with to enable making great espresso! Stainless double boilers, PID, timer, stable group, and more. Cons: I've never seen it, not sure I'd like the looks (plastic panels, egad!) It also costs more. My single biggest concern is reliability - K Fox's clogged jet experience has me real concerned, as well as fit/finish issues (eg, the driptray issues), and noise issues. While I'm not scared to dig into a machine to repair, I'm not sure new machines should in generall need repairs.
Elektra 60's Pro: sounds like a piece of art and would really be a showpiece. Makes good coffee. Con: uninsulated and very large boiler may be (even more) overkill for my level of use.
Synesso Cyncra one group Pro: Well made. Good looking (we've seen a two-group at Bull Run coffee in Minneapolis - produced one of the best coffee's I've ever had). Sounds like a great machine. Con: I'm not sure I could live with myself spending this money, considering my usage amount.

At this point I'm leaning toward either the Cimbali or GS3. I think I'd like the GS3 if it weren't for all the issues.

Everything considered, what do you think? Thanks very much for your help, Steve

If I were looking right now and had your list of candidates, I'd try to find out when Cimbali will be coming out with their new single group machine. I don't know what they will call it, whether they will retain the name "Jr.," which is why I didn't call it that.

Since you like the basic "industrial" look of the Cimbali, and since Cimbalis are generally regarded as extremely rugged and durable machines, I'd give their new model serious consideration if it was close to being released. Or, if you could get a really good deal on the current model, then I'd consider that, What I'd not do is pay $3K for the current model at this time. The other machines are considerably more expensive.

Dan K. recently recommended a Vivaldi II when I asked him what some friends should buy and they have ended up ordering one after doing their own research. That's a cheaper machine at around $2K, but not a bulletproof commercial machine as are the machines you seem to be considering.

So, based on what I know at this point I'd either go downmarket to the Vivaldi II if it met my criteria, or if going commercial try to get a good price to value relationship. The Cimbali D1 as presently configured at $3K does not represent, to me, good value for money considering that a newer model is soon to be released. It could be a good buy at a better price, or failing that I'd either get the new model or spend more money on something else.

The GS/3 is a nice machine once you get the kinks out. I paid $4250 for mine when they were being blown out the door a few months ago. I might pay that again, but I would not pay $5K for it. As to the Elektra, I've never used one but everyone who owns one loves it. For its current price, however, I think it is not worth it especially in a home setting.

ken

First of all, Steve, welcome to HB.

Secondly, I'm a bit puzzled by your post, and by the selection of these specific machines. In other words, although you cite some specific pros and cons, you do not explain why you've narrowed it down to these four specific machines over all others. You worry about overkill ("uninsulated and very large boiler may be (even more) overkill for my level of use"), although a) I cannot fathom how a large boiler in and of itself equals overkill, and b) the boiler is easy to insulate. And this means that some of your "cons" aren't really cons at all . . .

ANY of the four specific machines you mention will perform excellently in your home for years to come. Indeed, any of a dozen (or two or three) machines I could name will perform excellently in your home for years to come. There is, however, a certain commonality that ties all four of these machines together, and that is a certain lack of QPR ("Quality Price Ratio"), meaning that none of these really provide a great "bang for the buck," if you will.

As an aside, let me point out what may be obvious: Ken Fox owns several (three?) Cimbali Junior DT/1's; I own an Elektra Sixties T1. I cannot speak for Ken, but I do know he has had them for a while and did not pay anything close to the current retail price. The same is true for my Elektra; the street price took a considerable hike since I bought mine.

What I will tell you is that I don't see any substantial improvement in the cup by moving from an HX machine to a DB machine. (The Elektra, too, is an HX model, but that doesn't seem to be listed as a "con" in the same way you listed it with the Cimbali.) After long discussions on this site, I have come to the conclusion that a DB is more convenient for a newbie with limited experience. Having a PID controller re-emphasizes this point. But I am equally convinced there is no substantive difference in the cup, and each class of machine, HX and DB, has its advantages and disadvantages. If you are seriously into this little hobby of ours, you can easily achieve great espresso with either type of machine.

What you do not discuss at all is an upgrade to your grinder and, although you do not say with any specificity the price model of Pavoni grinder you have, I shall presume that an upgrade to your grinder is essential. Thus, keep in mind the less you spend on the machine itself, the more you have to spend on the grinder. And while the 4M's of Espresso treat all four equally, it's also been frequently said that it's the grinder that makes the espresso, while the machine is just a hot water delivery system.

In fact, many of us have two grinders -- a primary grinder for our "main" coffee,and a secondary grinder for decaf or special roasts.

Re-read Ken's post. I completely agree with Ken when he says,

Ken Fox wrote:If I were looking right now and had your list of candidates, I'd try to find out when Cimbali will be coming out with their new single group machine. I don't know what they will call it, whether they will retain the name "Jr.," which is why I didn't call it that.

Since you like the basic "industrial" look of the Cimbali, and since Cimbalis are generally regarded as extremely rugged and durable machines, I'd give their new model serious consideration if it was close to being released. Or, if you could get a really good deal on the current model, then I'd consider that, What I'd not do is pay $3K for the current model at this time.

What I will add is that my Elektra has completely eliminated any serious desire to upgrade whatsoever. The same is true for my grinders. I "know" (as best as anyone can actually know these things) that I won't be upgrading anytime in the short or medium term.

From left to right: Mahlkönig K30 Vario grinder, Cafelat tamper stand and tamper, Elektra T1 espresso machine, Baratza Vario grinder, Cafelat (neé Bumper) Classic knockbox.

There are any number of machines in the <$3,000 range that can be plumbed directly into the water supply (and out through the drainage system). There are any number of great grinders in and around the $1,000-$2,000 mark that will serve you exceeding well for a very long time, and that doesn't include the sub-$500 Baratza Vario that performs well above its price tag.

One final generalized thought . . .

Kokal wrote:My favorite drink is normally a double with about an ounce of steamed half-n-half. AM and mid-afternoon drinks for me, plus whatever my wife and kid wants (normally lattes).

Keep in mind that your coffee consumption will increase with the new machine. It always does.

There are lots of specific recommendations I could make, but from among the four specific machines you cite, I, too, would recommend them in reverse price order, that is the least expensive one (the Cimbali) first and move on down from there . . .

Cheers,
Jason

Kokal wrote: - produced one of the best coffee's I've ever had.....Everything considered, what do you think?

Can you tell us what grinder they used? that was a key element in determining the coffee you had,

I think you ought to have them wire a 220 circuit while you're renovating.

Get an elektra nino, a vivaldi s1 V2, plumbed in model and don't look back.

SwingT wrote:Can you tell us what grinder they used? that was a key element in determining the coffee you had,

I think you ought to have them wire a 220 circuit while you're renovating.

Get an elektra nino, a vivaldi s1 V2, plumbed in model and don't look back.

I wouldn't wire the 220v circuit, if that means the whole sheebang including the breaker in the box and the plug the wall. People talk a lot about how nice it would be to have 220v service, but in reality, hardly anyone (even here) is going to buy a 220v espresso machine in N. America, because there are simply too many good 110v choices that 220v. provides little in additional options. Unless you have your heart set on a multigroup machine in your kitchen, or a Speedster, the likelihood that you will actually buy a 220v machine is somewhere between slim and none.

If doing a kitchen remodel, I'd certainly suggest bringing some extra wire pairs into the kitchen through whatever conduits and pathways they would be needed to run. This will allow you to easily wire in 220v. later should you decide to do so. More important, however, would be to bring in an extra circuit or two so that you can have a unique circuit just for your espresso machine, so you don't have to risk blowing breakers because your espresso machine is sharing a circuit with other appliances.

ken

hardly anyone (even here) is going to buy a 220v espresso machine

The Nino is 220 volt, and why I was suggesting the circuit.

Generally, if you run such a circuit during construction the cost is relatively cheap

SwingT wrote:The Nino is 220 volt, and why I was suggesting the circuit.

Generally, if you run such a circuit during construction the cost is relatively cheap

Sure, that's why I'd bring the extra wire pairs into the kitchen. That's what I did in my kitchen remodel a year ago. I could get an extra 220v. service into my kitchen with an hour's time of an electrician, spent at the breaker box and in installing the plug in my kitchen. All the wiring is there. But I probably will never use it, and not many other people here will, either.

ken

not many other people here will, either.

Not many other people here have a Nino, which is what I suggested he get

He obviously has a good sized budget to work with, my suggestion was basically to go down on the cost of the machine, but get the top of the line grinder and 220 volt wiring for the grinder.

This is getting off track on the voltage issue. I am following up on Jason's earlier post

zin1953 wrote: an upgrade to your grinder is essential. Thus, keep in mind the less you spend on the machine itself, the more you have to spend on the grinder.... it's the grinder that makes the espresso, while the machine is just a hot water delivery system.

The OP is clearly trying to ensure a top notch setup. I am saying he should increase his budget on grinder - and at the overall budget he's looking at - he can have the top of the line grinder and a suitable espresso machine if he changes his thinking and allocates his funds differently.

That top of the line grinder happens to run on 220.

Granted, people have a tendency to recommend what they own - and I have an S1 V2, but I don't own a Nino - yet - even so, I think that is the grinder to get if you have the budget for it.

SwingT wrote:The OP is clearly trying to ensure a top notch setup. I am saying he should increase his budget on grinder - and at the overall budget he's looking at - he can have the top of the line grinder and a suitable espresso machine if he changes his thinking and allocates his funds differently.

Ken, I guess my attitude is somewhat different: just because one has the money, doesn't mean one has to spend the money . . .

For example, there is one machine that I "lust" after . . .

Kees van der Westen's 2-group Mirage Idrocompresso

. . . but although I could probably afford it (with some effort and a kitchen remodel), I'll never get it. There is no point. The quality of my espresso will not improve so dramatically as to make the machine worth the expense.

This has been discussed before, the diminishing returns of expensive equipment in a home environment. For example, while I have zero desire to "downgrade" my grinder, a Mahlkönig K30 Vario, do I really need such a "serious" grinder? According to FAQ's re: the K30 Vario on the Mahlkönig's website,

What is the maximum recommended repetition cycle?
• Single-phase operation 100-120V: 4 seconds grinding / 26 seconds pause (= 2 double-shot per minute)

Do I really need a grinder that can grind a double-shot in 3.2 seconds and does two doubles a minute all day long? Obviously not, but I'm not getting rid of it either!

Personally, I am a big believer in "prosumer" equipment, but I'm hesitant to recommend true commercial equipment for home use. (Again, who really needs a 2-group machine in their home?) Now, I'm the one to talk, right? I have an Elektra T1 and a Mahlkönig K30 Vario, after all. But certainly when it comes to "spending" other people's money, I don't feel comfortable recommending a $5K machine when there is little, if any, "improvement" to be had over a $3,000 machine . . .

Yes. "Need" and "want" are two very different things. And if the OP wants to spend the money on a Synesso Cyncra 1-group for his home, who am I to say "no"? But I cannot in all good conscience recommend the purchase . . .

That said, there is no way to "objectively quantify" how much better an espresso pulled on a Synesso Cyncra may (or may not) be compared to, say, La Spaziale Vivaldi II -- but will it be three times better? After all, round numbers for the sake of discussion, you're comparing a machine that retails for $6400 to a machine that's $2200 . . .

Hmmm. Probably not. But I am almost always more comfortable recommending someone buy a better grinder . . .

Just me and my 2¢. YMMV.

Cheers,
Jason

Thank you all for your kind replies and welcome!

K Fox mentioned that a new Jr-like Cimbali machine may be coming out - yes that may just be the ticket. Unfortunately I haven't been able to find any information at all on this. I know many companies keep their products under development secret so current product sales aren't prematurely diminished, so I'm not surprised there isn't much info. I can probably wait several months for this if I know its really coming out. Ken F., can you pass along your source of this Cimbali info so I can look into it further? The Cimbali dealer in Minneapolis doesn't seem to know (or isn't saying) about this model. Thanks!

Regarding the Vivaldi - it sounds like a good value. The problem is I haven't seen any here in the upper Midwest, and one of my wife's requirements is it has to look good (on display 24/7 you know). The only two machines I listed that she has seen in the Twin Cities are the Cimbali (her favorite) and the Synesso. I also showed her a Speedster on the web ("looks like a spaceship") and two group Marzocco FB/80 at Paradise roasters ("you can get a smaller one of those").

Jason (zin1953) - thanks for your insights, I agree. Yes I'll be getting a new grinder also. I'll probably keep my older (but still sharp) Pavoni grinder for decaff. (Full disclosure: I also have a Kitchen Aid burr grinder for my weekday drip brew, so I expect to end up with a full counter of coffee apparatus). I was thinking of the MACAP MC4 Doserless just because we've seen one, looks OK, I don't think I need the doser, and it seemed to get decent reviews in Home-Barista's grinder review section (as did several others). I'd be open to other suggestions though too. Re. the Elektra, you're right it would be easy enough to insulate so maybe that's not such a drawback. I just haven't seen one other than the photos (anyone know where I can find one to look at in the SE Minnesota/Minneapolis area?)

Regarding Bull Run's grinder (used with the Synesso): I believe they have Mazzers, though I didn't check the model. They were very large, I would guess at least two feet tall. Bull Run also had a Clover single cup coffee machine which was like a reverse French press type machine. The grinder for the Clover was a rectangular shaped German made model but I don't recall its name.

I do plan on putting in a separate 20A circuit and I could even run 220. I'll have to look further into the Nino grinder too.

An easy way to solve all this would be to fly out to Chris Coffee in Albany with my wife, but honestly I'd really rather spend that money on the equipment!

Thanks again everyone, Steve