I'm hoping to get some help with choosing a grinder that is able to switch between widely varying grind settings, from coarse to fine, i.e. to handle both espresso and manual filter grinds (paper cone drip filter or French press). Please include comments about ease of cleaning the grinder, particularly the issue of cleaning out the trough in the exit chute that tends to collect residual coffee. I've been told that all the grinders have this problem; I'd appreciate comments on whether that's true and what to do about it.

I am a novice home user and upgrading from a plain blade grinder to a burr grinder for the first time, in the range of $400-600 (more if necessary). I make small amounts of coffee per day (2-3 cups and more if there's company). My first try was the Compak K3 Touch (stepless doserless). I'm returning it for the reasons given below.

My difficulty is this: I read Dan Kehn's superb review of high-end grinders in which he suggests that the Macap M4 stepped would be good for someone who wants to switch between widely varying grind settings such as I've described. However, I also read a two-part review of the Macap M4 stepped grinder (links below) which indicates that it was not a good choice for that person and for the same purpose (switching between widely varying grind settings). So I'm not sure what to do.

In case it's helpful, here are my problems with the Compak K3 Touch:

1) it has some play at each grind setting

2) it collects a significant amount of residual coffee in the trough of the exit chute, which is difficult to clean out and the trough can't be seen, even with the top burr grinder removed. I have to wonder what happens if you use Grindz---does it collect and remain in that trough as well? Not a great thought.

3) it's very difficult to clean manually (not using Grindz). I got the top burr out but now I can't screw it back in. The bottom burr appears to require an allen wrench to get it out, so I've given up on that. And I don't think Grindz is going to get to the places where I found coffee had gotten stuck and built up in the burrs. It even got into the threads.

My thanks to Dan for his work on the high-end grinder review, which obviously was considerable. It's beautifully organized and presented, and I found it invaluable. And thanks to the rest of you for any help you can give.

Two-part review of Macap M4 stepped:

http://modifiedbydesign.wordpress.com/2 ... ew-part-1/

http://modifiedbydesign.wordpress.com/2 ... ew-part-2/

It seems that the Baratza Vario would be an excellent grinder for you. Though I have never used one, the reviews are very positive. it is designed to do exactly what you want.

The Baratza Vario is probably the best grinder for you.

VERY little grinds left in the burr area, and the adjustment, while stepped, is kind of a hybrid design. PLenty of adjustment for espresso, yet easy as pie to go to the coarsest grind available. At 429 retail, with discounts to be had, i think its the best grinder for anyone who wants one grinder,for both espresso and brewing.

Baratza Vario Grinder

I'm amazed to have received such lightning fast and helpful replies! I'll go check out the Baratza Vario right away!

My deep thanks to both of you, JmanEspresso and sweaner!

I also agree that the Vario is an excellent choice as the reviews of that machine have been fantastic. I would however like to offer my two cents. I have been using my mazzer mini for a while now and I also go between grinds fairly often myself and found it to be a real pain to keep adjusting the grind. I just recently purchased a Baratza Virtuoso and could not be happier with the results. I am able to leave my mazzer where I want it and have my Virtuoso as my second grinder as it is easier to adjust and also does not leave many grounds left behind. If you have the room for two grinders I would suggest looking at having a dedicated espresso grinder and a second for everything else. Also the Virtuoso can be had for 133.00 I think on Baratzas web site refurbished so that would fit into your budget as you can usually find a nice mazzer mini for 300-400

Dear Bluegrod,

Another rapid and extremely helpful reply! In response to the other two replies, I did check out the Baratza Vario with an expert professional source (who asked not to be revealed) and was told there are still some bugs to work out with the Vario because it's new, and to check back in a couple of months. but it does look very promising.

So maybe your idea about getting a less expensive grinder, such as the Virtuoso, for the filter drip/French press grinds is a good one---either as an interim or permanent solution. I hadn't thought about getting a second grinder because I thought it would be too expensive, but you've provided a solution that would work.

All this help is terrific. Again, many thanks.

May we ask? what bugs need to be worked out? And what could be changed in a 'couple of months'?

If you have the space, I'd strongly suggest having an "espresso only" grinder, and a second grinder for other purposes, as Bluegrod also suggested. Practical experience ('cos it's what I've done) is that this is a much more convenient solution. Reasons ? Several.....in my case anyway

1) Even with a Mazzer grinder, which is quick to adjust and very accurate when returning to a previous grind level (not all espresso grinders are), you have to be very very precise to get it back spot on. Any grinder with a worm screw adjustment would be utterly frustrating to me (I think some folk have fitted guitar winders to try to speed things up a bit).

2) Unless you grind only as much as is needed each time (i.e. there's nothing left in the hopper or the burrs) it's a pain to get rid of the espresso grind/beans to put in the ones you're using for drip or press coffee and vice-versa.

3) In something like a mazzer and many others, you always get some residual grind left over from what you used it for before.

4) I'm not convinced that grinders designed for espresso are that good for other grind levels.

To complement a Mazzer I use for espresso, bought myself a Dualit grinder (made by Solis - the US equivalent is/was the Starbucks barista I think) and use that for everything else. Works fine, and was cheap - don't think I'd want to use it for espresso though.

I haven't ever seen/used the Vario, but from what I've read, 1) and 4) would not be an issue with that machine. I don't know about the other points.

If you have the space, I would definitely spend most of the money on a good espresso-only grinder, where things are most critical, and buy a second, competent but much cheaper grinder for everything else. Life is so much easier with this sort of setup.

If you really do want only a single grinder, I guess the Vario is about the only one that fully fits the bill.

Dear Chipman, I'm sorry I didn't get the details on the "bugs" in the Vario, it was rather a general statement, but I think "Zin" has done a great job of giving you access to details, certainly beyond what I can do.

i moved from a maestro + to a virtuoso after the former was not up to the task of serving my new silvia. Joe Meeks had refurbished virtuoso calibrated for espresso and turkish grinding, and i am very happy. easy to adjust, grinds efficiently with very little left in the machine, well made.
the vario is an intriguing development but i was a little spooked by the cost and the complicated electronics.
the virtuoso doesn't get many raves on this site but i think they have caressed the design a little bit since the original roll out and it is a better machine now.
steve

Dear Keepitsimple,

Thanks so much for your thoughtful reply and the time you put into it. I'm beginning to think something along those lines might be the solution. Actually, someone else outside the forum suggested that I buy an automatic espresso machine because it would be better coffee than the filter drip/French press and would come with a conical burr grinder and the milk steamer/foamer. I was planning to hold off getting an espresso machine and just use a high-end grinder plus auto milk steamer/foamer (by Cremina) with filter/French press for awhile, so any espresso capacity would be a bonus. An automatic espresso machine, such as by Spidem or Saeco, would cost the about the same price as a $200 grinder plus the Cremina, so I'd be getting those two components plus some espresso capability. I don't know how good the Spidem grinder is, though---does anyone know? Do they switch from coarse to fine?

Hope you're not all cringing at the thought of an automatic espresso machine, but no matter what, any thoughts would be welcome.

Dear Sbien,

Thank you for adding weight to the Virtuoso Voices - next you'll be on "America's Got Talent" or "Britain's Got Talent" (just joking)!

So at the moment, after hearing your resonant "songs", I think I'm going to give up on the do-it-all grinder and now the choice is: 1) a Virtuoso dedicated to filter/French press plus the Cremina auto steamer/frother, with espresso machine in the wings for later when I have more money and more time to research; or 2) an automatic espresso machine with conical grinder and steamer/foamer. I'm big on the latte end of things, as you've probably guessed, so that steamer-frother function is important.

Again, thank you.

Ann....IMO, an Auto is a waste of money, when, having a semi-auto espresso machine such as an Anita/Vetrano, Astra, etc and just a little patience and practice you will make cappuccino's that will rival the best cafe's in America, and MUCH better than from an Auto. If an Auto goes bad, generally it must be shipped back, and with a combo you lose the (at best) mediocre grinder as well.
Assuming you take my advice on this, there are 2 grinder configurations (assuming you have a bit of counter room). These are not any particular order of preference.
#1)Mazzer SJ(used, $350-$450) for espresso, Solis(Baratza) Maestro ($63 refurb, as good as new)
#2)Baratza Vario (new, $395-$429)
The "bugs" mentioned by your "professional source" are not dissimilar to other higher performing grinders, such as a bit of spraying of grind, and occasionally a bit of static.
Either way, you can't go wrong. However, please read here and at [url]coffeegeek.com[/url] about your myriad of choices regarding machines.
There's also the manual lever, which I currently empty. Real hands on espresso making.
Oh yeah, speaking of hands on, manual grinders can be had for $75 and do an awesome job for espresso.
Try here. http://www.orphanespresso.com

Yeah, ive got to totally agree with Rob, Skip the Superauto.

The grinders are rarely that great, and dont offer much adjustment. Plus, even with fresh coffee, the resulting beverage is anything but great. I think you will be disappointed with a SuperAuto machine.

Unless you were considering the Quickmill Superauto, which is considerably more then the models mentioned, go for the Vario, buy fresh coffee, and make french press and pour over coffee until you decide to buy a machine. There is no way what a superauto makes would be better then what you can make with a Vario, Freshly Roasted Coffee, and either a FrenchPress or Pour over. Yes, it is true that all of us here love espresso.. But most of us ALSO love our french presses, our Chemex/pour overs, and our Vacpot/Siphons. In the same way that I wont be without my espresso setup, I will neither be without my other brewing gear. The superautos in the 400-600 dollar range* will be a big disappointment compared to other options out there

This is just my opinion, but I think most, if not all, on this site would agree with Rob and I.

And FWIW, the Vario is probably the best "do-it-all" grinder out there for a nice, home friendly price. So, with that, you just might be able to have your cake, be able to eat it, AND get a second piece!

*Most superautos would be a disappointment compared to the other options, mainly, the one you are considering(Vario with FP/Pour-over, then buy a machine down the road)

Note to IMAwriter.....

What a great link you provided. Check out the fantastic report on the Baratza Vario.

http://www.orphanespresso.com/index.php?main_page=page&id=50&chapter=0

Hi to Everyone,

First of all, let me say what a bounty of generous assistance you've given. For me, a priceless treasure. Now let me see if I can do justice to your replies.

I want to thank Jason for your patient discussion on the differences between automatic, semi- and super-automatic, in spite of your cringing! An invaluable intro. And thanks as well to JmanEspresso, Rob and Bluegrod for explaining to me why the super-automatics are not a good choice.

Rob, I was very glad to have your suggestions about semi-automatic brands to consider. I have to say I don't have the gumption for manual grinding, though it was delightful to read the link.

And I finally had time to read most of the links Jason provided on the Vario. I LOVED the "Texas Grinder Shootout" link (AKA Vario vs the big boys)---it was hilarious as well as a substantive in-depth comparison. The Vario turned out to be a sharpshooter for sure!

The link on recalibrating the Vario was terrific; the author called Baratza and spoke with Kyle, the developer of the Vario, who was forthright enough to say he thinks the set point was set too fine and then he gave suggestions for fixing it. That might be one of the bugs you asked about, Chipman. And it reminded me that I too can call Baratza.

Nik, your Vario link was super (not automatic)---I was amazed at the detail!

JmanEspresso, I was so glad to have your comments on loving your pour-overs and French press. Made me feel good to hear that those methods have their own value. Of course, Espresso is the Next Dimension---I'll just have to work up to it, given time to research, and money.

So, by virtue of the accumulated help from everyone who wrote in to the forum, I've settled on getting the Maver Cremina so I can have my "latte", working up to getting an espresso machine later, and I've come down to a decision between the Vario and Virtuoso. I have two questions about that:

1) the Virtuoso has commercial-grade conical burrs; the Vario has ceramic flat burrs. Who can tell me the Virtues of conical Vs ceramic flat? (a lot of "v's here!)

2) With the ceramic flat burr, somewhere I heard that it has associated plastic parts and that these may not be reliable or burn out early on. Does anyone know anything about that?

I plan to call Baratza on Monday about the Vario vs Virtuoso, as well as my professional barista source. I may be able to get more detail on the bugs in the Vario, which Chipman asked about.

On a different topic, does anyone know about the Maver Cremina (automatic steamer/frother) ? Maybe I should write that as a separate forum question. If so, feel free to ignore.

This is my first forum experience ever and I have to say it's been an incredibly rich cup, beyond compare. Thank you all!

Ann

Mark, thank you. It's great to hear from someone who's been using a Vario for an extended period of time. If it works well for espresso, I would think it would be fine for the coarser grinds. Can I ask: Did you have to recalibrate? Is it easy to clean? How much residual coffee is left behind in the trough of the exit chute?

also, I want to add one clarification to my previous lengthy reply: if I buy the Virtuoso it would be with the idea of getting a separate dedicated espresso grinder later, to go with the espresso machine. If it's a new Virtuoso, the difference would be around $250 dollars between the two options (1) Vario=$429; 2) Virtuoso=$200 new plus the cost of the espresso grinder, so around $650 total).