I would choose the Vario over the Virtuoso. That way, when you do get into espresso, which you will do, you will not need a new grinder.

Well, the votes are stacking up for the Vario! Still, I'm going to find out more on Monday about the possible "bugs", just to clear that up. I'll report back. Thank you, Sweaner.

The only "bug" I'm aware of that was consistent was that early ones came adjusted too fine - something that was easily corrected and doesn't exist in the current ones shipping. I've noted one or two people reporting minor manufacturing flaws, but nothing that would worry me. If you have concerns I note that orphanespresso unpacks each unit and QCs it before shipping. The references that have already been cited in this thread should tell you all you need to know w/o having to do much more research.

Another grinder thought (or thought-grinder):

I had a PM from Bluegrod, who agrees with KeepitSimple that if I'm using a "do-all" grinder and there are any residual grinds left in the grinder, then switching from espresso grind to filter/Frenchpress grind requires completely clearing out the residual grinds first, which sounds like a bother to me. I noticed that Mark, you're only using your Vario for espresso, so you don't have to deal with this.

I wasn't thinking about this with regard to the Vario until now, and I'm going to add it to my questions to ask Baratza on Monday. If anyone has any info. about this in the meantime, I'd love to hear it.

My thanks to both KeepitSimple and Bluegrod for pointing this out. This is really a major investigational effort!

Hal, thank you for the info. on the "bugs". I think the Vario has been out for about a year, so maybe they're worked it all out.

And Mark, I appreciate the extra detail you gave, especially on the coarse grind issue. Sweet Maria's has a grinding info. article that says the conical burr grinders are inconsistent when it comes to coarse grinds, i.e. for filter/French press. Anyone know anything about that? I'm asking with the idea of buying a grinder dedicated to the coarse grind.

lattelover wrote:Sweet Maria's has a grinding info. article that says the conical burr grinders are inconsistent when it comes to coarse grinds, i.e. for filter/French press. Anyone know anything about that? I'm asking with the idea of buying a grinder dedicated to the coarse grind.

Funny how they say that and also say "grind finer": French Press Brewing Instructions from Sweet Maria's. I would not worry about it.

Ann,

Your worry about switching between beans your use for espresso, and those you use for brewing, possibly being a little bit of a pain, maybe losing some coffee... I think I may have a solution

You dont HAVE TO keep the hopper full with beans. IDK what the ratio of people is on this board, but I know at least some of us only add beans to the grinder as we need, while others open the bag of beans, and pour em in. Both ways have their advantages, and while you are only grinding for pour-over/FP, there should be no problem leaving the hopper full(if you are using the same bean).

When I am at my machine, I dose the amount of beans I want for a shot into the grinder, grind into the PF, and pull the shot. I dont keep coffee in the hopper, mainly because I rarely only have one type/blend of coffee Im working with. Its usually 3 or 4 different beans, so adding per shot works well for me, and others as well.

So, when the times comes that you buy an espresso machine, and you still brew coffee, just add whatever amoutn of beans to grinder that you are going to grind, for the beverage you are about to prepare.

IDK about OTHER small conical grinders and how they handle coarse grinds.. But I do know that my conical burr hand grinder does not brag about its coarse grinding capabilities. Other grinders, I cant speak for. But, since the vario will handle all your needs, why spend more money?(But dont let me stop you if you want to!!)

Dan, thank you for settling me down about the question of conical burr grinders and coarse grind. I also had a PM from Bluegrod praising his Virtuoso and saying how great it is for coarse grinds.

To JmanEspresso: I like your solution a lot and it answers a question I didn't ask but am glad to know about, which is about switching between different beans.

What I was referring to is the residual grind left in the trough of the exit chute of the grinder. That was a big problem for me with the Compak K3 touch---there was a lot left in that trough, it's difficult to get at and impossible to see, even with the top burr off. Getting the bottom burr off is too big a task for me to do on a regular basis. Also, there were a fair amount of grinds in the burr threads and clumped up in the well between the two burrs. That was after only a week or so of using a new machine.

I spoke with Roger at Chris' Coffee who said all the espresso grinders have some residual coffee grinds left after grinding. The reviews of the Vario indicate there is very little residual left, and one had photos with the top burr removed, to show the absence of residual. It seems to me that for the Vario to do what it promises as far as switching between coarse and fine, that it can't leave ANY residual grind behind. So if it actually does that, does that mean it's unique as far as that attribute?

Right now I'm leaning toward buying a Virtuoso, dedicating it to coarse grinds only, and get an espresso grinder/machine later, after saving up money and doing more research. I can't say enough about how much benefit this forum has been for me. My decision has evolved through the thread of this discussion. And I've gotten such an education in the process! As ever, thank you all.

lattelover wrote:The reviews of the Vario indicate there is very little residual left, and one had photos with the top burr removed, to show the absence of residual. It seems to me that for Vario to do what it promises as far as switching between coarse and fine, that it can't leave ANY residual grind behind. So if it actually does that, does that mean it's unique as far as that attribute?

The Vario is unique in that it retains little grounds shot-to-shot, but it's not difficult to sweep the chute of other grinders as necessary if you're willing to remove the finger guard (see This paintbrush is the best $1.25 I've spent on my grinder, How to Tame a Messy Mazzer Doser, and Improving Mazzer doser efficiency for examples of "can do" workarounds). Keep in mind that the larger grinders we're talking about (Mazzer, Compak, etc.) are commercial grinders designed for coffee houses. Holding back 2 to 4 grams in the chute is inconsequential for cafe usage.

In my opinion, retained grounds isn't the main issue with dual duty grinders, it's preserving the espresso grind setting. For a given coffee, determining the exact espresso grind setting is quite important. If you've "dialed it in" to the millimeter, changing it to make a French press means the next espresso pour will be slightly off compared to the previous one, even if you mark the espresso setting. Even if I could purge all coffee residuals from grinder X, I still prefer a dedicated espresso grinder so time and coffee I've invested in dialing in the setting isn't lost. Since brewed coffee is generally less demanding on grinders, I would use a less expensive grinder for that purpose (e.g., a refurbished Solis Maestro, manual grinder, etc.).

Of course I speak of what's ideal. If space or funds are the main issue, then a dual duty grinder like the Baratza Vario or any other top grinder with a cheap brush works for me.

P.S. By trough, I'm referring to the trough at the top of the exit chute. It has some vertical tines in it.

Also, to JmanEspresso, my apologies if I wasn't clear with my question; although it turned out to be an unexpected bonus because I got help with something I didn't know to ask about! Again, thank you.

Dan,

Dan, what an ingenious solution! And I got a good chuckle about you changing the color of the cups to suit your mood! Also, I took note of your pristine equipment---not a grind to be seen. I'm so glad to have the link.

Thank you for pointing out the more important issue with the Vario. I didn't realize that none of the espresso grinders can return to the exact previous espresso setting once the setting is changed. That seems weird to me, but then I don't yet understand how the grinder mechanism works.

I thought the Vario might be different, but I think you're saying that it's the same issue with the Vario, even if it's a high tech electronic setting.

So that just leans me even further toward the Virtuoso or Maestro dedicated to coarse grinding and deal with the espresso issue, both grinder and machine, later. BIG THANK YOU, Dan!

After seeing your photos, I realized where some of the misunderstanding about my questions lies. The Compak K3 that I've been using is doserless. That was recommended by Chris' Coffee because I'm doing primarily filter/French press brewing. The rest of you probably all have doser grinders, so the exit chute goes into the doser. My exit chute does directly into the cup I use to catch the ground coffee. When I talked about the trough at the top of the exit chute, I meant a trough at the top of the throat of the exit chute, something like what Randy Glass is showing in his photos, which are in the link you (Dan) provided about the paint brush. I've been using a brush similar to Randy's, but mine is curved and I use it from the outside bottom of the trough to the inside upper part. His brush is bent and can be turned 180 degrees so the bend works both from the inside going down and the outside going up the chute.

As an aside, Cilio makes a curved natural bristle brush that I just ordered. Here's the link:

http://www.storehousecoffee.com/bristlebrush.html

To Bob_McBob: you've summed it up very well. It comes down to the Vario vs two dedicated grinders, one for coarse and one for fine. That underscores what everyone else said.

You've all helped me avoid an expensive poor choice that would have cost me money, time, and frustration.

lattelover wrote:I thought the Vario might be different, but I think you're saying that it's the same issue with the Vario, even if it's a high tech electronic setting.

The Vario has fancy electronic timers that you can set to 0.1 second intervals (e.g., 10.1 seconds for espresso). They're convenient, but have nothing to do with the grind settings, which are controlled by two manual levers (coarse/fine). The Vario adjustments have detents, so you could move the coarse adjustment from espresso to French press and return to the prior setting reliably followed by a short purge of grinds. The back and forth trick gets tiresome with worm-driven stepless adjustments (e.g., La Cimbali Junior, Max Hybrid, Macap M4 stepless) and is less reliable with infinite adjustment collars (e.g., Mazzer and Compak). As Bob points out, a dedicated French press duty grinder is not costly, especially if you're willing to buy a refurbished one or hand grinder.

Thanks again, Dan. If I've got it right, "detents" refer to the fact that the Vario is stepped, and that's what allows for reliable shifting between coarse and fine. When you say "could move", I wonder if it is yet to be revealed whether it actually does that. Also, I probably don't want to deal with "a short purge of grinds".

In sum, I definitely got the message now about getting a dedicated coarse grinder. I'm settled and set. My standing ovation and gratitude to all of you!

lattelover wrote:When you say "could move", I wonder if it is yet to be revealed whether it actually does that.

I'm nitpicking. At the risk of belaboring the point even further: Among the grinders I listed above, the Vario is the best designed for back-and-forth adjustment since you would not need to fuss with the fine setting for French press and returning to the coarse setting is about as easy as returning to the same setting for a stepped grinder. But as someone trying to guide you on your path to exceptional espresso, on principle I resist changing a grinder's setting for any other purpose than improving the next espresso.

lattelover wrote:Thanks again, Dan. If I've got it right, "detents" refer to the fact that the Vario is stepped, and that's what allows for reliable shifting between coarse and fine. When you say "could move", I wonder if it is yet to be revealed whether it actually does that.

The Vario accurately returns to its previous settings.

In sum, I definitely got the message now about getting a dedicated coarse grinder. I'm settled and set. My standing ovation and gratitude to all of you!

I guess, in an ideal world. But the Vario has as a design goal to do what you want to do.

Also, I probably don't want to deal with "a short purge of grinds".

You will have to do that with a dedicated grinder also. It's more or less inherent in the design of all of them. One big advantage of the Vario is that it retains much less grinds than most. Personally I'd rather have one good grinder designed to fulfill both functions, than I would two inexpensive grinders of lesser quality.

Hi All, sorry for the delay in replying. I took some time to consider and I found out about the "bug" in the Vario. It sounds pretty minor: there's a plastic clip on the two sliding buttons on the front and reportedly it can come loose and pop off. Apparently, the recalibration issue that was detailed in one of the earlier reviews has been corrected by Baratza.

I found a great price on a used Virtuoso; I've decided to get that and dedicate it to coarse grinds. I like that it has a conical burr grinder, is stepped and doserless. The Baratza website specifies that it is good for coarse grinds. I've been told that it is very easy to remove both burrs and to clean it in general, also that it doesn't leave much residual grind.

That will allow me time for research and saving money for an espresso grinder plus machine, both dedicated to espresso. Just researching the one issue of double boilers vs heat-exchangers is a whole new realm, especially for a cappuccino/latte lover like me.

I gather I can get a discount on the grinder-plus-machine combo. It makes for an easier decision about the grinder since it will be dedicated to espresso. Then I can get one with a doser that is stepless. With the discount for the combo and the great price for the used Virtuoso, I don't think I'll pay that much more for the two-grinder duo and it simplifies everything for me. For me, I think in this case that splitting is better than lumping!

Dan, thank you for the clarification. I don't consider it nitpicking and we got a wonderful quotable quote to boot!

Also, thanks to you and Hal for answering my question about whether the Vario is actually accurate in switching settings.

This has been a remarkable experience for me, sort of a spiraling down to essential questions and answers, with tremendous help and support along the way. Although I have yet to make my first cup of espresso, my sense is that it is a similar process, orchestrating an infinite range of possibility in subtle tones and variations, to spiral down to a cup of essence. I bow to the work you've all done in this universe of art and science, for an experience steeped in the sensory that embodies the ineffable.

ADDENDUM ABOUT SWEET MARIA'S:

I just got an email from Sweet Maria's that their grinding info. article is confusing and they meant to say that the Zassenhaus MANUAL conical burr grinder might not provide an even enough grind for French press brewing, but they do recommend the electric conical burr grinders for French press brewing. They seem to be less particular about a grinder for filter/pour-over brewing, although I personally would be just as fussy.

So that clears that up. Once again, THANK YOU, Dan!