avamtel wrote:Awesome advice thanks to all. In inspecting the used Vibbe anything I should be careful to look for? Also in terms of buying a used grinder I've heard that is usually not good idea--any thoughts, any brands particularly durable if I do go that route? Again thanks to everyone for your help.

I purchased an older Rio badged Mazzer Super Jolly. I paid $260 + $30 for a set of burrs. It's an excellent grinder that will probably last at least 10 more years if not more. There are deals out there to be had!

Let's not scare Amy away from that 2nd VBM.
It is a well-built machine that could last with some tender loving care for a few decades easily.
A "manufacture demo model" is a question mark in terms of real usage, but you can assume it looks new.
If I look at 5 years of Quick Mill Andreja Premium (on timer, 17 hours/day "on"), then you need only worry about a few parts: vacuum breaker valve (under USD 10, I guess) and E/61 gaskets.
The vacuum breaker valve lasts about 2 1/2 years in my circumstances. The E/61 gaskets about 4.
This is an aging matter of the "rubbers" caused by the high temperature where the vacuum valve is on the boiler (130 C) at well over boiling temperatures and the group head just under boiling temperature.
Compared to my previous machine, a superauto, that machine needed around 20% of new price service cost per year and TCO was very much higher.

Altogether these parts are not too expensive and if you cannot, dare not, replace them yourself you have to find an espresso service person that is prepared to do the small machine.

The point here is that you need to pay a fair price and 10% or 20% off is too expensive for a machine that has been "on" for 4 years.

Regards
Peter

"Get my machine"

"No, get mine"

Are you having fun yet?

If you are entertaining, you need a machine suitable for catering. The Vibiemme or Bezzeras will do fine, as will any other machine with a 2 liter plus steam boiler and a heat exchanger or separate brew boiler. The Silvia can't do four to six quick cappas in a row.

You will also need a good grinder, since these machines won't work at all without grinders costing under about $250. Here the entertaining demand strikes again to raise costs. An entry level grinder like the Rocky, Le'lit, Quaha, Innova, Pavoni, Lux etc, will be too slow, and probably too loud and fussy as well. For occasional heavy use, the Vario is your best low price bet. It is also a clear grind quality step better than the entry level grinders I mentioned.

You are looking at around $1500 to throw an espresso drink party. Sorry, but that's the minimum.

Here's the good news, a $1500 superauto would drop dead by the 3rd latte, and your guests would be rolling their eyes. I have lots of friends with machines like that, and at their parties, it's always the big Mr Coffee doing the brewing duty. So, if your husband can spend a week getting proficient, spending the money this way will actually work for parties.

Wow Jim--thanks. But what do you think of the Baratza Virtuoso grinder--good price and I can get it at Wm. Sonoma where I have a moldering gift certificate?

The Virtuoso won't work very well for espresso. It doesn't have enough fine steps in the espresso grind range to dial in your shot time. You really need a stepless grinder or at least one with very fine steps. The Baratza Vario, while somewhat similar to the Virtuoso in layout, is a much better choice because you can fine tune the grind with the stepless grind adjusters.

Please don't make the mistake of blowing most of your budget on the machine and then getting a cheap grinder. You'll only end up being frustrated because your expensive machine is producing bad espresso. Set aside enough money (at least $400) to get a decent grinder and you won't be sorry later.

avamtel wrote:Wow Jim--thanks. But what do you think of the Baratza Virtuoso grinder--good price and I can get it at Wm. Sonoma where I have a moldering gift certificate?

As Eli said, the Virtuoso is not a good match to a commercial group espresso machine. It works great for normal brewing, and the home style machines with coarse grind tolerant, crema enhancer baskets like the Krups or Capresso machines, but not for true espresso machines.

The minimum grinder that achieves uncompromised taste is the L'elit, along with several other models using the same Trespade conical burr. The L'Elit is supposedly the quietest, but these grinders are all somewhat slow and loud. They will work at a pinch at parties, and just fine on your own, but most people upgrade after owning one for a few years. As people get into an activity, they usually are willing to pay extra for amenities like more user friendly, quieter and faster operation.

avamtel wrote:Hi Gang-
reading the forums to try to figure out what machine to get my husband for his birthday. I've obsessed over this for a while

Hold on, just a sec. I'm a little curious about your buying hub this coffee gear. I'd worry that it could be like buying kids a puppy. Who is really going to be responsible for this addition to the family, get trained on using and caring for it, clean up the mess? Now, if you really want this puppy, I recommend you take ownership--maybe your next birthday.

Of course, I'm clueless about your relationship, your gift-giving philosophy, and a couple of other things. But consider setting aside the cash and guiding him through what you've learned so far from your research. If he is as enthused as you are, maybe you can get him the espresso machine and gets you a grinder. Happy birthday.

You can't get a decent rig (new machine + new grinder) that has the potential of making great espresso AND something that can quickly serve up 6 cappas, for under $1000. Seems to me that there are two routes to take:

1. If you and your husband are going to be coffee enthusiasts, increase your budget so that you can get a heat exchanger machine AND the Baratza Vario or better. Consider it an investment, as gradual upgrades will end up being very expensive. (my first rig is Compak K10 + Alex Duetto II, should stave off the upgraditis for a long while)

2. Be satisfied with serving your guests brewed coffee rather than espresso (with quality beans and proper brewing, brewed coffee can arguably be just as enjoyable/refined as espresso). For your daily home use, get the Silvia + Vario and stay near your $1000 budget.

avamtel wrote:Either a Used Vibiemme Super HX Tank Domobar (2006 manufacture demo) or a new Bezzera BZ02S or Bezzera BZ07spm. Can't believe I'm considering spending this much (about 1,000)

I assumed in earlier posts your total budget you want to allocate to espresso/cappuccino is higher than that based on the "either/or."
Depending on the discount given on the VBM, I would start with that one. And, with an espresso machine you can start brewing, potentially buying coffee ground for espresso (cursing in the church, sorry). The other end of the "either/or" does not provide a route into coffee until you have the espresso machine.

avamtel wrote:want to be able to serve 6 cups or more of cap. when we entertain. Started by looking at the Silvia but that purchase might lead to rapid onset upgraditis.

A series of six seriously loads your machine and you should stay away from machines that have to be switched between brewing and steaming modalities but can do both at the same time instead.
Really, upgraditis - and unnecessarily fast depreciation are around the corner if you did this.

avamtel wrote:The Vibiemme looks awesome but concerned about used aspect.

As I explained earlier, I would not worry about this if the machine looks like new and a fair discount is given I gave a few pointers for haggling. and there are a few more, but basically they need to really give a very good discount and you are fine.

If you only do "cappas" then you might be less finicky about the espresso, actually.
Initially.
Try to get to a point where you step into the home-barista world with predictable well-documented equipment.
Apply upgraditis to the coffee and your taste in it, not necessarily the HW.
I do not know the Lelit grinder, but if Jim points to it, you have a really good start.
But then, talking 2nd hand, you might be able to source a good 2nd hand _big_ commercial grinder and if hubby is into DIY a bit he could refurbish it himself, making sure the correct burrs go into it, etc. (read the Titan Grinder Project pages on home-barista to get an idea of what this is all about.)

Regards
Peter