I am finally on track to buy my first serious machine. I have been a lurker on this site as well as a few others for years and always let life get in the way of spending $1k on a machine. Well times are changing and I have also got my wifey warmed up to the idea of spending money on a real machine.

I currently have a Vario and plan on keeping it. Mostly I have been drinking SO pour-overs and love espresso also. There are a couple of good coffee shops nearby that take it seriously and will serve intelligentsia, CCC, and stumptown. The problem is that I am never going to drive 30 minutes out of my way for a great double every day.

I have my eyes open for a used e61 HX like a Cuadra or QM Anita. The BDB also is attractive to me. The daily start up timer and PID are nice to have items. Any other dual boiler is pretty much out of my price range...about $1k.

Does anybody have secret connections that can get me into an R58 for $1k?

Seriously though, My real question comes down to longevity. Do the budget used e61s that will end up in my range have a significantly longer life expectancy than the BDB? What are we talking? 5-7 years for a BDB and 7-10 for a simpler HX?

A QM Anita currently for sale in Buy/Sell, IMO a higher quality machine (with available parts if needed in future) than Breville. Easy shot temperature management nod to BDB of course but I'd still go quality over convenience until I could afford quality AND convenience.

Add 15A digital timer for $20-30 from HomeDepot etc.

There is a Vetrano in the B/S/T forum on coffeegeek.com in my price range and I was ready to pull the trigger because it is perfect for me but the boss said "what?! used?...no way. We have no idea what they have done to that machine" I didn't want to argue right then and there with her because we were out to dinner and there is no good that can come out of that. So now I am back to the drawing board...

Do I make a list of why a used machine isn't scary at all or do I start trying to convince her that our budget needs to be $1500? Decisions, Decisions...

Austin,

I am the former owner of the Vetrano on CG's Buy, Sell, Trade. I sold it to Tim a few years ago. Let me assure you that it was in pristine condition when I sold it, and considering how little he used it along with the fact that he used it with the Chris Coffee 2-stage filtration system I supplied with the machine (with brand new cartridges, I might add), this thing will run for MANY more years and is a smoking bargain at that price. The Pressure-stat (a normal wear item every 3-5 years unless you are running a Sirai) was also nearly brand new (Jaeger p-stat inserted just a month or so before the sale). Already has an EricS grouphead thermometer ($110) also.

I hope this puts your mind at ease about that Vetrano. It is an absolute bargain and won't last long.

Cheers!
Merle

If you go in with the idea that you'll have to immediately start descaling and maybe replacing some seals, you can go with the used one. I wouldn't suggest assuming otherwise. If you get a great, clean machine at a used discount, just consider yourself lucky.

I am fully aware of the benefits/risks. The problem is that my wife doesn't see it that way. I need to make a convincing argument about how it is only descaling and seals, not out for repairs.

Any given machine on any given day...

One argument is that the Breville uses a LOT of plastic and proprietary parts and is highly complex. While it can make excellent espresso, it is another of the consumer goods seemingly designed to be used for a finite amount of time then sent to the recycler and replaced and not repaired. In the past there have been other Breville machines which no longer have parts availability for repair. On the other hand, there are plenty of articles of folks repairing espresso machines that are many years, and in some cases, many decades old.

With some consumer goods, like LCD and Plasma TVs, it costs more to repair then to replace one that is 6 or eight years old, not to mention gaining new technology that supplies a better picture. In some lines of espresso machines we see that now. The BDB with its dual boilers and very sophisticated controls does have the potential to create excellent espresso, what will the wife say when it needs to be replaced in X years?

I'm of course biased here, since I am the one selling the Anita here on HB. But I was once also a buyer of a used HX and never have I regretted the choice I made. I have never had a problem with it, even so I have always felt comfortable with the fact that if something would break, standard parts (pumps, pstats and what not) are readily available. Also, on HB you have an immense amount of knowledge about these machines.

Another factor you should consider is the resale value. Buy a 1k used quality HX, use it for a couple of years and you will likely be able to sell it for the same price or slightly less. It doubt the same applies to say a BDB.

(The Vetrano for $1050 is a great buy, depending what the shipping from Canada is. Shoot me a PM and I'll see if I can persuade you towards the Anita. I'm in no rush but I know the Mrs would appreciate getting the box out of the house so I'm def open for negotiation.)

I'm biased, but only against the Breville. A quality, used E61 HX machine is going to give you far more years of service than a Breville.

Once the warranty is up on the Breville you can't get parts. They don't service the machine, they don't make parts available to consumers or repair shops. I think the warranty on those is 1 year + whatever warranty your credit card or add-on warranty might give you. I my case the credit card would give me 1 more year. So in 2 years my $1000+ Breville, when it does need service, would essentially be worthless. The used e61, even if in need of new seals and annual maintenance, would still fetch at least $500 if not closer to your original investment.

If you can get a good used machine for the same price with an E61 group take that. I love the ones with the lever action on them - and they look great too. For piece of mind I always descale, flush and change necessary seals and you have a nearly new machine at that point. Run enough hot water through the group and steam through the wand and you have a pretty sterile machine.

If you are worried about the machine you could have the seller send you pics of the internals and perhaps a video of the system in operation to confirm it's working well. Sounds like you have a couple of the past/present owners available here for one of the machines, so you are buying from a known source in a way.

As an alternative just tell her you dropped the idea of the Breville per recommendations and give her the price of a new machine vs the used one, and possibly throw in a second new machine that you would like that will be serviceable down the road. (I have an NS Oscar HX non-e61 that works great, but doesn't look so great. They are available for ~$1000 new.)

DanoM wrote:I'm biased, but only against the Breville. A quality, used E61 HX machine is going to give you far more years of service than a Breville.

Once the warranty is up on the Breville you can't get parts. They don't service the machine, they don't make parts available to consumers or repair shops. I think the warranty on those is 1 year

The official warranty is one year. But everyone I know who is having problems on machines over a year old is having them replaced... for free. Breville seems to know that machines in the price range of the BDB have to have acceptable service lives, or they will be sunk (probably forever), in the enthusiast espresso market. What made them decide they wanted to get into real espresso, I have no idea, but so far, they aren't messing around, and seem to be forging ahead, fully committed. They hired a real espresso geek, one of us essentially, to head up the BDB, and then they did something most big companies who hire experts off the street DON'T do... they actually listened to him and gave him the power to make product decisions. That's an eyebrow raiser right there.

Just to clarify a very important detail... the BDB has not one, but TWO PIDs. It's very important because the second PID controls a heating element in the group head. What that gives you is a mimicry of MASSIVE thermal stability... we're talking the level of commercial machines here. And that really was the crux of the matter for me when I made my decision. I worry about the durability of the BDB as much as the next guy, and chrome and brass for a lifetime of good service seems the antidote to that worry... except for that damned temperature stability thing, which I knew no $2000-$3000 class machine could match... and I promise you, I was within a hair's breadth of buying one, (a La Spaziale Vivaldi, rotary/plumbed, and not the wimpy vibe pump mini-Viv). In the end, I knew I would have to pony-up to the saturated brew group level... the $6500 GS/3-and-up level, to get BDB-like temperature stability. And one day I probably will. But in the mean time, performance won out over durability for me, and I went with the BDB instead of the $3000 class machine that might have lasted me a lifetime. If and when my BDB fails, (and I have one of the oldest ones out there, trouble-free the whole time), I'll either buy a GS/3 or another BDB, (or a used single group Cyncra).

-Peter