So I have narrowed it down to these two for my first machine at the home. I'm very curious which machine will pull the best shot. I first fell in love with well pulled espresso while working in New Zealand. Since being back to the US now for over a year I need to quench my thirst for good espresso that can not be found in the US cafe's. In NZ I used a 2 group Wega.

Given a 700-1200 machine budget outside of 400 for grinder, am I in the right place with these two machines?

I will be usually just be pulling shots for myself and girlfriend but would on occasion like to pull 5-7 within an hour. Is this possible with the Pavoni?

What are the heat up and clean up time comparisons?

Can anyone with knowledge of both these machines shed some light for me?

AFAIK, neither machine is meant to be left on for long periods of time. Both machines can pull an excellent shot. The Pavoni, however, will almost certainly superheat the water and make any shot after the first 2 or 3 too hot. The Expobar allows for the HX "water dance" in order to cool it down. Not much can be done for the Pavoni (some folks keep a cold towel on the grouphead) except turn it off so it can cool.

As others will tell you, the grinder is more important than the machine. The better your grinder, the greater your chances of pulling a great shot.

Thanks for the reply!
What is the cool down time on the Pavoni after a few shots, to be able to pull another?

How long can I expect these machines to take warming up before pulling a shot?


Is this an acceptable grinder?
Rancilio Stainless Steel Rocky with doser

No offense to the Rocky but I have been looking for any excuse I can to get in to a better grinder.
The Rocky can be temperamental a quick search will tell you more.

To echo a previous post the grinder makes the shot much more so than the machine.

Can Rocky do it? Yes
Will you have more hair left with a better grinder absolutely.
YMMV

dorman1979 wrote:Thanks for the reply!
What is the cool down time on the Pavoni after a few shots, to be able to pull another?

How long can I expect these machines to take warming up before pulling a shot?


Is this an acceptable grinder?
Rancilio Stainless Steel Rocky with doser

I usually dump the water from my Pavoni 8-cup in order to speed the cool down process. It retains heat for a while - figure 20 minutes before re-filling. Perhaps others have a different experience. My Pavoni is ready in about 6 minutes; the Pavoni Pro shouldn't take too much longer.

I think most folks would say keep the Expobar on about 20 minutes to heat all the internals.

From my own experience with my Rocky, which is a fine grinder; a stepless machine will do you better.

I think, personally, if you're going to be making espresso for two people regularly, and also want to use the machine to pull a couple shots in a row, say maybe for a dinner party, the Office Lever might be a better match. IMHO.

That said, given a proper grinder and fresh artisan roasted beans, both machines have the potential for great espresso. The shots pulled on the LP(or any lever machine), will be much different then shots pulled on a pump driven E-61. Neither better, nor worse. If you're after oodles of crema and super-thick syrupy shots, the OfficeLever would probably be a better machine. The lever machines, in general, produces shots with a slightly lighter body, maybe less crema, and a different flavor profile. Like I said, neither of these machines are bad at all, and BOTH can make some excellent espresso.

AFAIK, the ExpoBar Office Lever has a Vaccum Breaker, as well as Auto-fill Circuitry, and a Hi-Limit thermostat. So, yes, you should be able to leave it on 24/7, if you wish. Some people leave their machine on 24/7/365, like me, and others use an Appliance timer and program the machine to turn on/turn off at certain times during the day. The LP has no need to be left on all the time at all. From turning on the power, to the machine being ready to pull shots, the LP will be quicker. The Expobar needs, at a minimum, 45 minutes. Most people using a timer give it an hour. You can speed this up a bit by flushing water through the group once the boiler is heated.* IDK how long the LP takes, but it isn't an hour.

As for the Rocky...

Is it a bad grinder? No, far from it. But for the money, you can do better. A main downfall of the Rocky, is that is has a stepped adjustment, meaning there are defined settings where you can set the grind. What you want, ideally, is a stepless grinder. No setting, just a wheel/knob/collar which your turn one direction or another, to move the burrs closer/further apart, which tightens/coarsens the grind. This is ideal for espresso so you can best dial in your shot, for your given situation. So, while the Rocky does a good job, for the money, there is better. Now, if the Rocky were like, $250, might be a bit of a different story.

You might look at grinders like the:
Lelit PL53
Ascaso I-1 & I-1/D
Cunill Tranquilo
-or, for a bit more money-
The Compak K3 touch
Baratza Vario

-There is also the option of a used Mazzer Grinder. This is a popular way to get a great grinder at a good price.

You want to get the absolute BEST grinder you can. Its the most important part of the kit. Of the list of grinder above, the Baratza Vario would be the best bet, but they're all capable. Maybe you move a little money from the machine fund, to the grinder fund. You would be hard pressed to have "too much grinder", as Im not sure such a thing exists.

*Unless Im missing something about the Expobar, machines of that size and class usually need a minimum of 30 minutes, without any flushing, to be ready. 45-60 would be best. Its not just the boiler that needs to be hot, but EVERYTHING in the machine, including the PF need to be hot.

Jman
Wow what a huge help thank you for taking the time to share all that!

Im not sure if this is a repeat from somewhere else but I wanted to share the following.
When I was in New Zealand I was told I would not be able to produse the same quality "flat white" drink in the states because we pasteurize our milk. So I found this page which helped me find a couple stores near me that sell unpasteurized milk. I cant wait to do a side by side!

http://www.organicpastures.com/

I am curious why you narrowed it down to two very different machines?

If you like manual lever machines, have you looked at the Ponte Vecchio machines?

Wow I found the Cunill Tranquilo online for 235$. If it really is better than the Rocky I'd be happy to save a little over 100$

Sweaner
That's just it. I feel I have narrowed it down to the best for my price range in each category (semi auto vs lever). Being that I'm new to owning a machine for the home I was confused on which of the very different approaches to take.