I've been reading HB (and CG) for many years now, biding my time until the day arrived that it would be my turn to dive into proper espresso preparation at home. Well, at long last, the funds are available, and I am ready (and willing) to dive into the deep end. My budget is pretty open, somewhere in the $4,500 ballpark. I will almost certainly purchase from either CCS or 1st Line.

This will be my first setup at home. I guess I should mention that my current beverage of choice (when I go out to places in the city like Vivace, Victrola, Stumptown, Vita, etc) is a quad-shot latte. I currently do not drink straight shots because, well, in general I find straight shots by the local cafes a little too "out there," often overwhelming the (my?) senses in a very unpleasant way. I usually get a macchiato instead. I guess I just don't like "NW style" espresso. I much prefer the drinks I got when I was last in Italy, "thinner" and more approachable (== can drink more than one a day). I plan on using locally sourced (fresh) beans from the above-mentioned cafes/roasters (and others, of course, including HB sponsors and other "Blends for 2011" nominees).

I have considered my options pretty carefully, searching the depths of my soul (and HB), and here's where I currently stand with my purchasing options. I would love any feedback any of you has for me.

I know, "It's the grinder, stupid!" but please allow me to begin with the machine, since that's actually the easier, more tangible quantity for me.

I value consistency, quality, and durability (and quiet!). I don't want to get upgraditis in the next few years -- if ever. I don't mind a learning curve, as long as it isn't so steep as to be so frustrating that my purchase becomes something to look at instead of utilized. I want something that just plain works day in and day out. I don't want to have to fight the thing if I am making one drink for myself, or twenty drinks for friends at one of my "gatherings."

I've pruned my machine choices down to one of the DB machines (Duetto II or VBM DD) or the Junior Casa DT1 (for a tiny bit more -- at the recommendation of CCS). It seems these machines easily fit the bill, and should be able to provide me with nearly a lifetime of nearly effortless "coffee." I have/had a slight leaning toward the DD.

However, 1st Line has thrown a wrench into this "easy" decision by offering the Elektra T1 in this pricing bracket.

FWIW, I've drooled over the A3 for *years*! When I started seriously researching my options, I discovered, to my chagrin, that the A3 is no longer being made! I almost cried! It's ooohhh sooo pretty! And of course, $4,5xx for the T1 was just beyond what I was willing to spend. Now it's back on the table, and I am seriously tempted.

Alas, I feel compelled to ask: Would I be likely to regret going for the Elektra? Is it "too much" machine for me, i.e., will I find steaming milk impossible to learn or temp surfing too laborious or inconvenient? Should I stick with a DB?

Okay, now onto the grinder... While I've read the Titan Grinder Project et al and conicals vs [large] flat burrs and so on, this grinder decision confounds me. All kinds of (sometimes contradictory and/or conflicting) claims are made re: conicals and flat burrs (and large flat burrs), dosers vs doeserless, and on and on. I find it perplexing to even begin to comprehend!

I do know one thing, however, and that might even be misguided: I have an absolute hatred of dosers! Thwack, thwack, thwack, thwack (rinse & repeat). I'm sorry, I know I am opening myself to more expense and "less" performance (for the price), but I just don't think I could live with that racket! Based on this, I have currently homed in on doserless, large burr grinders.

It seems the two candidates in this class are the Compak K8 Fresh and the Mazzer Major Electronica; both are very similarly priced with very similar specifications.

It seems that the Compak would be easier to clean (although simple mods to the Mazzer probably render this differentiation negligible). Nonetheless, I just really like Mazzers. I love anything built like a battleship. I would worry more about the fru-fru electronics of the Compak vs the additional modding or cleaning "difficulty" of the Major.

Here's my problem: Unlike many other grinders out there (all the Mazzers, the K10, the K30 Vario), there doesn't appear to be much written about Compak's Fresh models, much less a comparison with the Major. It seems this is largely going to boil down to personal biases, aesthetics, and other intangibles. Here's where I really need your help.

Should I learn to live with a doser and go for something like the K10 Pro (or some other dosered conical)? Am I just looking into "too much" grinder? Am I neglecting some other selection criteria or some other grinder? /me head spins

Of course, I hear my wife's voice in the back of my head saying, "Sometimes you think too much. Make a choice and do it!" Guilty. [Throw away the key!]

I thought I would ask the collective wisdom of the board to make sure I wasn't absolutely doing something boneheaded or overlooking or neglecting anything obvious, and therefore make a huge, expensive mistake.

If you've persevered through this long message, I thank you for your time and patience!

PS. No, I have not yet spoken to 1st Line for their advice. I still feel a little unprepared to engage with them intelligently on the subject, especially on the grinder.

Keith,

Welcome to HB. Machine wise, I would definitely recommend double boiler machine with the PID for consistency. I don't know how temperature consistent the machines with E61 group are given that their group head hangs in space and that it will be affected by environment temperature, but I had GS/3 which has saturated group and it had rock solid brew temperature and repeatibility. Consistent as hell

I will let others recommend you specific machine...

Grinder wise, I have tried all top Titan choices and have everything from titans flat burr, conical and hybrid. With that in mind, I recommend you get Compak K-10, mod it a bit so you can easily single dose it and brush out the chute and you are good forever with it. Major would work too, I have it and it is very nice grinder as well with easy to brush out chute. I'd get it with doser as well and mod it for clean sweep and easy brush out...

I would not worry about doser thwacking, it is not big deal really...

The uber quality HX machines have a steeper learning curve but allow you to tune temps on the fly over a fairly wide range. The high quality double boiler machines -- especially electronically controlled DBs -- allow for a very consistent idle close to or at brewing temperatures. DB is an easier system to learn. Once learned, you have as good a chance of pulling consistently good temperatures with one as the other.

The HX machines you're considering are a step up from the DBs in terms of groups, brewpath mass and materials, and maybe some other things too. Do the differences make a difference in the cup? Yes, but the differences are subtle. Will you taste them through milk? Over time, as your palate adjusts to nuance, probably. My wife, who drinks double double large lattes sure can. Will any of the machines you've named make you very happy for a long time? Almost certainly.

After buying and owning a Casa, my impression is that it's enough better than the old DT1 to rate an update of Dan's excellent review of the old one. Since Cimbali added pre-infusion to the DT1, the Casa makes as good a cup of espresso as easily and as repeatably as the Elektra; and once you've got the hang of it, "excellent espresso" becomes routine.

The Elektra has a considerably larger boiler than the Casa, and is a better steamer for large numbers of milk drinks. It's also got a longer drop from group to screen and can handle taller cups. If you routinely froth enough milk to serve a dozen hot chocolates at once, you want the Elektra.

Otherwise (based on a year owning a Casa and a little fooling around with an Elektra) I'd call it a push. Talk to Mary and/or Chris at CCS, and see what they say. (FWIW, they don't suggest the Casa to everyone who can afford it, you must have really stressed quality construction.) In my experience, no machine can make better espresso at a home production rate than either of these. As good? Yes. Better? No. (Maybe "pressure profiling" will change my mind down the road, but it hasn't yet.)

Wow. Great price on the Elektra. Wow!

Based on what I've heard -- mostly here at HB -- your grinder field is very good, but I don't have enough experience to comment.

Enjoy,
BDL

I would think the Elektra A3 and a Major-E would fit your bill very nicely. Both, with care, would pretty much last forever and are built like tanks. The grind path on the Major-E I believe is much shorter than on most of the other Mazzer-E models, which is a definite advantage, and the Elektra is very well respected and packs plenty of punch.

I would advise against the Hx type machine. There is a lot of movement on the pressure profiling front and Hx machines don't do well retrofitting profiling pumps according to Jim (at least that was my understanding). If I were buying new today, I would get the GS3. If money were no object, the Synesso Hydra single group. I don't have much experience with grinders other than Mazzers. I have a Robur E but decided to modify it to a doser model. I don't think the E versions make for good home grinders for a variety of reasons but mostly they waste a ton of coffee.

I know my advice puts you way over-budget but maybe buy an awesome grinder (K-10 gets great reviews here) and a lesser machine.

HX's have a saturated brew loop, so I can't see why they wouldn't work exactly the same with profiling but I could be wrong. I have an outboarded TMFR profiling pump that I am pretty sure I could hook up to an Hx circuit. Thats why you get freeze damage in a DB brew boiler or a Hx loop, because they are full of water and no air to allow expansion, but not generally in a steam boiler. Therefore I would have thought pump pressure in, is going to translate to pump pressure out, ie profile..(in laymans terms). Having said that, 'future profiling proof' would be very low on my list.

I do remember mentioning something or other about large waste on the Robur-E before you bought yours (thats why mine is in the cupboard) but the grind chamber on the Major-E is very much smaller and the chute way shorter than on the Robur-E. Without having personally used a Major-E, but being pretty familiar with several of the other -E models, I believe the Major-E would be one of the most suitable for home use (other than its physical size and cost of course). One of the other forum members with a Major-E and Robur-E has also mentioned something along the lines of this previously.

Food for thought.

The only knock I have on Major is that grind adjustability range is very narrow. You use at tops 2-3 notches on collar which is very touchy for fine adjustment. It is usable but that is my nitpick with it. No such problem with say K-10.

Machines, you'll have to decide which one "feels" best to you. All the choices you listed are solid ones and you're already working with reputable dealers.

I'd echo the suggestion of the K10, especially for usability. I went doserless in the past and it was "nice" but not earth-shaking. There certainly is the annoyance of having to hold the portafilter while cleaning the grind path, if you decide you want to single-dose the grinder. I didn't realize how much easier a doser made things for me until I switched back. My experience with the K10 has been that the doser works well and self-cleans pretty effectively. It certainly doesn't spew grinds all over like the Mazzer dosers I've worked with do.

Jeff wrote:... It certainly doesn't spew grinds all over like the Mazzer dosers I've worked with do.

The Schectermatic Schnozzle takes care of that.

Doser vs. doserless is an ongoing debate, and I think that one can modify their style to accommodate either type. I would recommend a conical in either case with machines in that class. They seem to offer a wider, usable grind range that allows adjusting to taste (more than flat burrs, at least in my very limited experience), and they bring a slightly brighter profile to the cup that works well with milk drinks.

Pierre,

Having owned an HX, played on a Elektra T1, Vibiemme DB and now using a La Marzocco Dual Boiler along with trying out several grinders at my shop, I would like point out a few things from my experience.

Understanding that you're sorta new at this, I think the Double Boilers will make it much easier to be consistent with your espresso, especially as your just getting started down this path - so I would also consider the Vivaldi II along with the Duetto and Vibiemme.

Regarding the grinder, I actually prefer the doser. For me, there's less clumping and you can learn to use it without much waste. The K10 is a great grinder - I have one, however I would highly recommend you consider the Robur (I have that one too) if you can accomodate the hight. It's my favorite grinder out of all the ones I've ever used. It's VERY forgiving and SO consistent. The more inconsistencies you can eliminate the better. Oh and the Robur IS built like a battleship - gun metal battleship gray! I'm a big believer in buying the best grinder possible because it will effect your shot regardless of how good your espresso machine is.

I believe 1st-line is selling the Robur for around $2k, along with your espresso machine, you should be within your budget.

As for drinking straight espresso, try ordering some espresso from Counter Culture Coffee out here. They supply my beans for the shop but they should be able to ship to you within 2-3 days from roast. I would recommend starting out with Toscano- chocolate and nutty without overpowering or smokey.

Hope this helps.