Hi all,

I have been on this board for a while, Have upgraded to a double boiler S1 about 10 years ago, and a few years ago converted my La Spaziale to a V2 by taking it apart and swapping out parts. I home roast and am pretty serious about this stuff.

I am going to buy a GS/3 soon and until reading this forum I thought that my Mazzer Mini is a great grinder (it used to be the King of home grinders). Now I am not so sure. I get good results I am just looking for an upgrade after 10 years with the same machine (I think that the Vivaldi V2 is one of the best machines at that price point, the GS/3 is the only machine I feel is a significant enough upgrade to be worth changing)

After reading the Titan Grinder Project I don't really know what to do. I was happier with my grinder until I changed the burrs about a year ago, now I feel I have some consistency issues. Have considered putting old ones back. I still get great shots just consistency problems. I have also started weighing and tried different tamping and distribution techniques. I was a Schomer follower, now I am reading Rao. Will disassemble the thing over the weekend to see what I can do. Did I over tighten, or something? I don't think so. I am a light user maybe 1 pound a week through the grinder. I only changed the burrs because it had been 10 years. (520 pounds of coffee, seems very light duty for this machine)

But since it is not the grinder for such a machine as the GS/3, what is? There is a rebuilt Super Jolly on Craigslist. I thought that the new Lux-D looked interesting. I saw it in the La Marzocco shop in Seattle. I can not really comment on the grinding as I only used it a few times other than that it is fast and well designed. I really liked the way they set it up to be doserless with activation by portafilter. Very handy from functional point of view. Seems like larger burrs would be an upgrade.

Argument is always made that "those people who buy a GS/3 can pay another few thousand for a grinder" Well maybe but do I have to? I do not want a Robur sized grinder on my counter. I am a home user not a coffee shop. My GS/3 purchase is for the temp stability, 0.1 degree increments on PID, and the possible pressure profiling I will do after I mod it. Maybe someday I will have a dedicated coffee area and room for commercial equipment. (I would love to buy an old La Marzocco and rebuild it) Until then I need a reasonable sized grinder. The Super Jolly that has been rebuilt is about half price and seems like a great grinder, certainly an upgrade from a Mini. I wish it had the doser of the Lux-D with that little switch (it is very slick)

I guess the question is what is your budget? Is height/size an issue? Are you looking into a conical? flat? Doser/doserless? Do you single-dose? What flavor profile do you prefer? etc, etc. More information about what you expect from your future grinder would be helpful.

I have no experience with much grinders or making coffee but I recently purchased a Mahlkonig K30 Vario and I love it. It's FAST, not very large IMHO, fluffy consistent grinds and built like a tank albeit typical over engineered German product.

Perhaps if you were happy with your Mini before, you could look into sending it into a service facility and have them take a look at it. It may be a cheaper option since you were happy with it before. Unless you just have the itch to buy a new grinder. YMMV

Would you consider a hand grinder? HG-One is a Titan Burr set, fast for a hand grinder and easy to use, top notch in the cup, really only thing that might be better in a cup is the massive EK43. Mini days are long gone, Vario (Baratza not the K30) has made that class kinda obsolete, it easily outperforms the Mini and others in that class with none of their quirks like retention etc. Performs like a SJ in the cup. SJ is a fine grinder, but I would look further, into the classes above it, your getting into much larger conical and flat burr sets then. I do agree the size is a draw back of many.

I agree on the K30, with the short hopper it's actually shorter than SJ while not much more in footprint. I'm running dosered SJ now but I'm really annoyed with the bean retention and doser. It's geared more toward shops that dialed the grind once and keep it running the whole day without adjusting anything else.

Thanks for the replies. I will give this some thought.

I have read this Baratza Vario Grinder - Second Look and the Super Jolly and Vario seem pretty even.

I have heard some quality issues with Baratza, even the review seemed to have some issues. I do enjoy the Mazzer quality but maybe I will buy this used Super Jolly and upgrade to something more later. I do like the idea of buying a 20 year old SJ that has been completely rebuilt. Cimbali did pretty well in the Titan roundup.

I will look at the HG-one. The guy selling the Super Jolly has one.

I had not really budgeted on a grinder because I thought I had a good one already. I can afford something better but might wait to figure it out. It would be nice to have two Mazzer grinders.

Your new GS/3 will only be as good as the grinder.

Your research is old. The grinder market has changed, and opinions have evolved. For one thing, Mazzer no longer has the cachet it did, and is no longer synonymous with "the best," but more associated with "over priced."

The Mini, and the other grinders which used to compete for "best home grinders" -- Compak K3 and Macap M4 -- are passe. The Vario is better in the cup, delivers a fluffier less clumpy grind, and is quite a bit less expensive. A couple of other grinders are the same price or just a little bit more than the three Mini class grinder, and considerably better built than the Vario. And for a few bucks more, you're into the Super Jolly class -- most of which are considerably better in the cup than the Mini.

In the cup, Mini class grinders are "good." The Vario is good/very good. SJ class grinders are very good.

The new LM Lux (built by Mazzer) specs a lot like the very good Ceado E6P -- another SJ class grinder intended for non-commercial use. But very good" is neither "excellent" nor "outstanding." If you want the most of out of your beans (and the GS/3) it's going to take something better.

Most of the really good grinders are both large and expensive -- the so called "big flats" and "big conics."

There are also several excellent big flats as well as two or three which ought to be considered outstanding. By and large the big flats are pretty big, but tend to run less expensive than the "big conics." The Mahlkonig K30 "Barista" is a medium flat which performs like an excellent big flat. It's the best in the cup, hopper fed, on-demand grinder which, at 17.5" with its "mini" hopper, might fit under your overheads.

Cimbali no longer sells grinders in the US under it's own name. They may not even build them anymore. Casadio handles grinders for gruppo Cimbali. If you really want a Robur beating Cimbali, I'll sell you my Junior Max Hybrid. I consider it "excellent," with the same in the cup characteristics of the big flats, and it's relatively compact as well.

The Robur is one of the larger and more expensive "big conics," but all of them -- with the exception of the HG One are pretty damn large and expensive. Also, I wouldn't say that the Robur is the king of the big conics anymore, especially for home use; Mazzer really needs to get with the times. There are several big conics which are as good in the cup as the Robur, but quite a bit friendlier and less expensive. Consequently a lot of buyers interested in big conics look at the Ceado E92; Compak E10, F10, and K10; and the Macap M7D.

If you have to fit your grinder under a low overhead cabinet, your choices are severely restricted. If you want something shorter than the K30 (17.5" with the small hopper), and better in the cup than the Mini, you're looking at the Baratza Vario, it's better built brother, the Forte, and the Quamar M80E v2.

• What's your budget?
• Do you want to single dose by weight, or do you want a hopper fed, on demand grinder?
• How concerned are you about retention?
• Would "wasting" more than a half ounce of beans every day to flush stale grinds out of a big conic bother you?
• Do you switch coffees frequently, or tend to stay with the same blend or SO?
• Do you mostly drink dark, regular, or light roasts?

Rich

Rich, your posts are excellent...You pack so much useful information into them and truly are an asset to those figuring things out...Just wanted to say thanks for your contributions.

cmin wrote:HG-One is a Titan Burr set, fast for a hand grinder and easy to use, top notch in the cup, really only thing that might be better in a cup is the massive EK43.

As an EK owner with over 40 grinders under my belt (including HGOne #8), I find that this claim is only accurate it you're pulling light roast shots with a focus on maximizing origin flavors while still managing to get a balanced cup. I put some Vivache Dolce and Vita through the EK, a Super Caimano, and a Kony for a week on a GS3, and although nothing was to my taste, the Kony did a better job matching what my local Schoemer shop pulls with a Robur and a Synesso. I pulled a Kenya from Wendlebow through the same three grinders and found that the EK effortlessly blew the other two away, giving a balanced shot with lots of fruit and no hints of excess bitterness in the tail. There wasn't much to the body, and what flecks or tiger striping that may have been there weren't going to impress anyone looking for them.

If you feel you must upgrade from your Mini, take a moment to reflect on what it is you want out of your shots, and what a new grinder could do to make your shot pulling more enjoyable. If lots of body and crema are important to you, my experience has been that a big conical will help you get there quickly and more consistently. I think that what people refer to as "separation" is actually something I don't like when combined with what I experienced as the broader range of extracted flavors from the Kony.

What do you want your espresso to be?

Beyond taste, most of what you pay for in $1K+ grinders in convenience. Would doserless grinding make your shot prep more enjoyable? How about time based dose control? Super quiet operation? Low waste/reduced purging? Single dosing friendliness?


And a note: There is no such grinder as a K30 Barista. In the US it's the K30 Vario, K30 Air, and K30 Twin.

Thank you Rich,

It will take me a while to process all you wrote. I have to admit I was so happy with my setup I have not really been keeping up. I thought I had achieved the top of what I was willing to spend. Now I am willing to spend more.

Getting a GS/3 will be a new direction for me. I hope to explore more, take my roasting in a new direction. I also plan to modify it for pressure profiling. I hope to try new coffees and do some single origin roasting. See what I can do.

Like most home users I usually make one to two shots at a time and waste is not my top concern, but I would like to waste less. I think a loser gets in the way but it used to be that it was thought to even out the clumps, not sure if that is still believed.

The HG-one is pretty amazing. I may pick up this cheap SJ to bridge me to my next grinder. I think this person did a lot of nice work to restore an old grinder to new and I appreciate that. It is cheap enough to be attractive as a collector.

I will spend several days researching all that you have mentioned. Thanks again. I am enjoying all the new developments since I left.

Thanks Russel,

I think I don't really know what I hope to achieve. Perhaps I am just starting a new journey in my coffee enjoyment. I will try to learn as much as I can. I think I reached a plateau with my old setup and it was time for something new.

I don't hear anyone saying bad things about the Super Jolly. Maybe I will by that while I think about other stuff. Hand grinding might get old but I do like the concept of the HG-one.

I think if I get a super Jolly and use it for a year I should be good. If I don't sell it I can use the Mini for playing with drip, and other coffees. Would I at least be accurate in saying that a Super Jolly is a step up and might be a better match for a GS/3 until I find the ultimate grinder?

What I want is a grinder that can consistently give me good results. I want the grinder and the machine to disappear and have it be about the coffee. I don't want to fiddle with the grinder all the time I just want it to work. I want to play with the machine. I have always tried to make everything consistent and have the variable be limited to the grind based on shot timer. Now I am going to be playing with weights, and ratios, and changing my temperature. I just want a grinder that I know is doing its job. Grinding coffee evenly without changing it. I want the grinder to be easy to adjust and easy to keep clean. I can live with a tall one as I don't keep it under a cabinet. I want to never have to replace it or get it fixed.

I expect my GS/3 to be my last home machine. My next project in a few years will be to restore something I buy from a failing coffee shop. But I won't do that for many years.