Hi everyone,

As it seems mandatory to state, long time lurker, first time poster.

With that out of the way, I am in the market to replace my embarrassing Nespresso with a real machine. I am a few months away from my 40th birthday and feel like spending a large sum on something frivolous after 40 years of being frugal. I have two young kids so the two seater sport car has been vetoed by the wife so I have been investigating Espresso machines for some time. But as many who post in this particular sub-forum, not exactly sure what to get (although have some ideas). So thought I would ask this very knowledgeable group what the absolute best and most consistent in the cup grinder/machine combos are at a few price points.

I've watched Dan's videos and read his posts on how to choose the right machine and grinder. I have also seen the order of importance of contributors of Barista, Coffee, Grinder, Espresso Machine. In this exercise, I'd like to ignore the first two of those and assume they are of high quality themselves. That leaves us with only the grinder and machine. So with that said, what grinder/machine combo would provide the most consistent, highest quality, in the cup coffee at $3,000, $6,000, and $9,000? And lastly, how much better would the $9k be than the $3k or $6k?

Thanks in advance for your thoughts.

Way too many variables.

More $$$ doesn't necessarily equal better espresso.

I'm sure someone will be able to produce a God shot with a $2000 machine, $500-$1000 grinder with the right barista skills and great beans at their optimum peak. Someone else might make a God shot with a refurbished La Pavoni Europiccola and an OE hand grinder. Then take someone like me (still learning) and give me a $7K machine and $3K grinder, and I can probably turn out a moderately acceptable shot... or luck out and make a God shot.

Things to consider...

Look of the machine? Do you want shiny stainless or chrome? Or wood and brushed stainless?
Do you want hi-tech fancy like a Speedster or Slayer?
Counterspace available?
Vertical space available?
110V versus 220V available?
Plumbed versus tank?
What type of controls? Knobs, levers, joysticks?
Will you be making mostly espresso versus making milk drinks often?
What's your typical daily volume?
What type of design? single or double boiler versus heat exchanger versus fancy lever?
How much control do you want? Do you want to just press a button and get a pre-calculated shot?
How much data do you want to see and control (i.e. manual gauges, versus PID, versus guesswork)


For the grinder...

Do you want stepless control
Burr size?
Dosing capabilities (timed or by weight)
Bean storage capacity
Or go the other way and get a manual grinder with huge burrs like an HG One and still output grinds that rival a $3K grinder.


Keep reading here. I think if you start leaning towards a machine or grinder, see if you can find someone in the area and experience it first hand (i.e. hands on) before throwing down (or away) a huge chunk of $$$$$

Hi Kellzey,

Thanks for the response. I realize there are lots of variables in this but that's why I specifically took out the two biggest that I am aware of based on Dan's videos and post, the barista and the beans.

All the other questions you mention are valid as one shops for a machine and grinder. But I should have been more clear up front. I would like to take all of those out of the equation too. I am interested in people's thoughts on best consistent in the cup espresso at those price points, period. The looks, the size, the type of controls, the footprint, the ability to steam quickly are all outside of this exercise.

My only concern at this point is the absolute best espresso that can be consistently pulled at the given price points. I do realize even when boiled down to this level it is probably still subjective but with all other variables removed except taste, it seems there has to be a best grinder and machine to achieve the best in the cup espresso. The only limitation on the combo is $3k, $6k, or $9k.

lifevicarious wrote:Hi everyone,

I am a few months away from my 40th birthday and feel like spending a large sum on something frivolous after 40 years of being frugal.

Dude...Coffee Frivolous? Kidding, but I will assume that this is not just a passing phase. "Going Big" from the start is a wise decision if you can afford it, but I would describe big as Quality, Capability and Specifications...NOT Money!

I home roast and started at the Mid Level because of Money. Bought a Gene Café Roaster because it has great capabilities and Specifications and I loved it. I couldn't afford a Hottop at the time and I loved that Gene Café until she died. That is when I wished I added the "Quality" metric. No Service and Support drove me crazy and I can kick myself now for not going big with the Hottop. Ironically, I found a great used one on Craigslist at the same time. She has been great ever since. Great Specifications and Capability AND twice I had maintenance issues (Fusible Link and Motor) AND Hottop was there with me every step of the way. Their online support and parts had me up and operating again in less that 3-days for each problem.

Same can be said for Espresso Machines. Again, because of cost, I have a BRAND NEW, STILL IN THE BOX Breville Infuser that I just received from them. I bought one about 2-years ago and this is the third one they have sent me. Thank God they have great service, but I bought again because of cost...questionable quality. The Infuser will stay in the box and I will sell her on CL. Just ordered a Dual Boiler Quick Mill QM67 based on a lot of reading and my coffee habit (I am an Espresso/Café Americano drinker so frothing is only occasional in my house). Great reviews for customer support as well as Specifications and Capabilities that suit me. I can recommend a great vendor who went through this process with me if you like, but will only do that as a Private Message if you are interested. He went through my coffee habits with me and gave me several suggestions to research. HX/DB was part of this conversation.

OBTW: I have a Baratza Vario Grinder...

My journey has been my reward, but it was based on a limited budget at the time. Can afford the nicer things now and unfortunately that journey cost me more money in the long run because I should have gone big from the start...

NO FEAR!
Drew

I think you are going to get a lot of personal opinions with this open ended question.

And as to the end result, ye, it is all subjective... everyone's taste is different. Taste in the final cup and taste in machine design, function, and looks.

Regarding consistency, most machines are consistent using a given routine. They will always heat water to a certain temp and pressure. They will always output water at a certain pressure and temp and cycle back in a predictable manner. They will always steam milk with a certain volume of steam. Its how the barista applies his kowledge to a machine that produces a consistent cup. That being said, there are some machines that produce a consistently bad result... usually the low end of the scale.

I spent a month figuring out my old Europiccola. Now that I understand it and I am becoming one with the machine, consistent and excellent shots are coming out time and time again. The variables being me, the beans, and my routine.

At your price points, I don't think you'll delineate machines that can produce SIGNIFICANTLY different results. What you end up paying for is quality of components, build quality, fit and finish, automation and fancy circuitry, fancier machining, materials used, exclusivity.

Define "BEST ESPRESSO"???

Christian,

I believe too many people focus on the gear, when getting consistently excellent espresso is a matter of developing your skills and refining your taste to the point you can use it. Big splurge aside I would recommend that someone in your position get a Breville Dual Boiler and a Compak K10 PB grinder and start sampling many fine espresso blends on this gear. If you want a different experience you might add an excellent lever machine like the Bezzera Strega. Perhaps set aside as large a budget as you want, and when you feel that your barista skills are more than equal to your gear, you can sell off this amazing "starter" equipment and get something that best suits your developed tastes and skills. You could also spend part of your initial splurge training with a professional barista or taking a roasting training and deciding whether you want to dive into that rabbit hole.

In other words, I don't think getting consistently excellent espresso is a matter of absurdly expensive pro equipment at home. Something like the BDB and K10 are more than enough training wheels. Otherwise you're asking members here to indulge in a thought exercise for vicarious entertainment that won't have much value for your practical application.

+1. This combo cannot be beat for the $$, with the only upgrade path being the machine...and that's only if you feel the need to spend more money.

drgary wrote:Christian,

I believe too many people focus on the gear, when getting consistently excellent espresso is a matter of developing your skills and refining your taste to the point you can use it. Big splurge aside I would recommend that someone in your position get a Breville Dual Boiler and a Compak K10 PB grinder and start sampling many fine espresso blends on this gear. If you want a different experience you might add an excellent lever machine like the Bezzera Strega. Perhaps set aside as large a budget as you want, and when you feel that your barista skills are more than equal to your gear, you can sell off this amazing "starter" equipment and get something that best suits your developed tastes and skills. You could also spend part of your initial splurge training with a professional barista or taking a roasting training and deciding whether you want to dive into that rabbit hole.

In other words, I don't think getting consistently excellent espresso is a matter of absurdly expensive pro equipment at home. Something like the BDB and K10 are more than enough training wheels. Otherwise you're asking members here to indulge in a thought exercise for vicarious entertainment that won't have much value for your practical application.

Hi Gary,

Thanks for the response. I agree too many focus on the gear, myself included. But part of the reasoning behind my question was to see how much of a contribution the gear makes. Your suggestion of a BDB and K10 appears to be a great combo ~ $3k based on everything I have read about the two items. And you're the first that I have seen actually recommend spending more on the grinder than the machine out of the gate which I find interesting since most agree the grinder is the more important piece of the combo than the espresso machine. And from what I have read there seems to be little difference between the espresso from a BDB and a GS3. There is obviously a quality of equipment difference between the two but I wanted that to be ignored as well so I appreciate this combo suggestion.

I also agree with taking some barista classes which I would like to do and am investigating. But your comment about "training wheels" begs the follow up question of what's next after those are removed? I've taken the upgrade path before in cameras, golf equipment, bikes, and other things. I find the upgrade path to be wasteful from a time and money perspective and would prefer to start at the top if it makes sense from a final result perspective. I believe my skills will grow quickly so I don't want to end up at the point where my skills will be at a higher level than the equipment. I want my skills to rise to the equipment, I don't want to have to continually update equipment to match my skills. But even with that said, that wasn't the point of this thread. Is there any combo at the ~$3k range that would produce a better cup of espresso given the best beans and the best barista than the BDB and K10? If not, one price point down, two to go.

I'll start by answering your last question first in terms of what your better half won't let you have. How much better is a Lamborghini versus Ferrari versus Viper versus Corvette versus Miata? How much better goes up much slower than cost same with espresso equipment. To some the differences can be striking to others slight or even non-existent. And to make matters worse your espresso point of reference might be like driving a 1960 VW Beetle with an automatic transmission!

Your saying "...feel like spending a large sum on something frivolous..." gives me pause. This website is dedicated to Exceptional Espresso at home. While to some that may seem frivolous to others Espresso is not a matter of Life and Death, it is much more important than that. Are you actually looking to graduate to the path towards exceptional espresso or merely frivolous counter bling? Serious question.

There are a few on this site who have a very wide equipment experience range. I happen to be one of them but before I take my time going into a long compare and contrast equipment comparison I'll wait for an answer to my question above.

Since it appears you're relatively close, also suggest taking a road trip to Chris Coffee in Albany.

EDIT: now see a number of posts including your replies while I was typing (which included taking a break a pulling shot mid post)

Ok sounds like you're serious about delving into the world of espresso. I agree with Gary's recommendation as a very good starting point, especially grinder wise, with the caveat Breville espresso machines are consumer class build quality, only serviceable by Breville not even dealers, and after warranty more considered a disposal consumer item than long term equipment investment. In the cup Breville can hold it's own with much higher priced gear until/unless getting into cutting edge profiled shots.

Like others said, the hg one is great if you want to hand grind as there's less coffee purging and easier to clean compared to comparable grinders.

I personally love my combo and I would only upgrade the machine to get shot profiling. Believe it or not, besides the Vesuvius, shot profiling machines would be out of all your budgets!