hello All,

i am around for a while reading a lot of good information on the site, and it looks i decided to go (semi) manual at home for my morning espresso.
until now, i was tweaking an Incanto De Luxe, which is quite good when there are lot of people around the house but i consider going a bit further and buying another machine (and a grinder) which i have better (and easier) control to trial-and-error my favorite espresso. (i still keep the Incanto for gatherings)
i am seeking your advice, my main preferences are:

0) ease of use in terms of skill
1) good chance of first (or at least not far from first) time success
2) good steam, (occasionally i make lattes or mochas for the family, also it is a weakness of the Incanto)
3) robust construction
4) preferably a water inlet (i have good filtered water at hand)
5) available documentation on repairing and maintenance

i am really seeking an introductory machine, i am willing to exchange it in a year if i perfected my beginner skills and would go further. budget is flexible.

thanks for any help,

[s]

Three things I think you should focus on:

1. Have you picked out a grinder yet? Getting a good grinder is at least as important for success as getting a good machine.

2. "good chance of first (or at least not far from first) time success" might be trickier. Some machines are more forgiving than others, and the same is true for grinders, but the two biggest factors in getting good espresso are the beans and you. Good beans can be had from a variety of sources, but from experience I can tell you that the biggest thing standing in the way of good espresso when I started was my own bad habits.

3. Budget is flexible leaves a lot of room to the imagination. The cheapest you could get a real espresso machine is probably around $300 new, but depending on who you ask an introductory machine could cost all the way up to $1000 - and don't forget to add in the cost of a good grinder

The espresso world is grossly unfair -- the more expensive the gear, the easier it is to pull consistently good shots. If you are willing to spend $2500 or more on a machine and grinder, all your choices will run from very good to excellent; and your learning curve will be fast. If you are only willing to spend $1000 on the pair, all your choices will run from fair to good, and you will spend a lot longer becoming consistent.

This fact makes a beginners guide to espresso equipment problematic.

There are millions of people who own cheap espresso machines which will never make better than third rate espresso; there are millions more who own super automatics that will churn out third rate coffee at an amazing pace. Nobody who owns such machines would dream of buying the gear that the long time board members use; the setups are at least as expensive as high end superautos, and use commercial gear that looks ridiculous on a kitchen counter.

We all have ended up with these monstrosities because we've been bitten by the espresso bug. The bite came when we bought lower end gear that was maddeningly inconsistent, but which would, on occasion, produce amazing shots.

So what should us experienced espresso hobbyists tell beginners looking for equipment?

another_jim wrote:So what should us experienced espresso hobbyists tell beginners looking for equipment?

-Buy secondhand
-forgo cappuccino (gravity fed levers are very cheap and parts are available through Doug and Barb from OE)

I've been thinking about this, and I think it's important to figure out if we're recomending equipment for someone that just wants some good espresso, or for someone that thinks espresso will be an interesting hobby? Some people will get some equipment, get some good beans, and will get some good espresso most of the time (at least better than they were getting at SB) and some ok/great espresso occasionally and that will be perfect.

Then there's the people who will get the occasional great shot, and won't be satisfied until they can get those shots all the time. Then once they do, they'll get an occasional really great shot, and will try to figure out how to get more of those.

For the "regular" people, I'd recommend spending enough to get a machine and grinder that are easy to use and consistent because a cheaper machine might end up being a waste of money if they get frustrated with too many sink shots and put it in the basement. I'm thinking something like a Vario + BZ07 (or maybe Silvano?). Which is a decent amount of money to spend to see if you like making espresso at home, but might seem more reasonable if you add up how much you're spending on latte's every day.

For someone who might be a hobbyist, I'd say just go cheap and basic for your first machine because you're going to be upgrading no matter what you get Maybe a Gaggia + Trespade, or a used lever + hand grinder depending on what strikes you as interesting.

Bluecold wrote:-forgo cappuccino (gravity fed levers are very cheap and parts are available through Doug and Barb from OE)

Could you expand on this please, I am trying to work out what I should buy currently as a 1st machine, I don't need milk steaming so would be interested in this route. But as a beginner I would want to buy something that I had confidence worked correctly else I fear I would be totally lost.

ok, so i usually work on my espressos and try little differences all the time. i would not say its a hobby, more like i brush it (and sometimes screw it) a little with every trial. but i do like to spend time with it (more than the average).

EDIT:
i have sent a reply but looks that the the forum ate it. so: i think i would stay around $2000, get a grinder (new) which is serving me on the long term and get a forgiving machine (which can be second hand as well). at the moment i cannot predict how far i would go with upgrading.

At $2000 you have a lot of options. You can TristanC's recommendation of a vario and bz07 and come in way under that number. Or you could jump to a double boiler like the vivaldi and probably get a deal from chriscoffee keeping you at that number. (in full disclosure I am biased towards the vivaldi after a very LONG analysis of what machine to get)

Either way, you have the budget for a great setup.

I've been thinking that more and more a beginner machine for someone who likes straight espresso could be a MyPressi Twist paired with a good hand grinder like a Kyocera CM-45 CF or Mini Porlex, both with ceramic burrs. If I had personal experience with the product, I might even recommend the Baratza Virtuoso Preciso for the grinder, but I can't really make that call.

If you went this route to start, you would have the ability to make pretty good espresso right out of the gate and you also would end up with something that you'd keep for travel espresso or in my case espresso at work if and when you upgraded. Just add hot water and fresh coffee (almost). You trade the convenience of having an integrated boiler and steaming capability for small size, ease of use, and not having to learn to temperature surf a thermoblock. It's also new stock so you don't have to wait and hunt for deals on lists or auction sites and take risks with vintage hand-grinders from an unknown source.

I keep thinking that the next big thing will be an easy to use portable milk steamer to pair with this setup or my La Peppina lever at home, but I haven't seen it yet and my skills on the Bellman stovetop cappuccino machine are suffering. My biggest gripe with the Bellman, I guess, is how long it takes to get up to steaming power so you really have to plan ahead. I don't really like the steam tip either, but it's not replaceable.

yakster wrote:I've been thinking that more and more a beginner machine for someone who likes straight espresso could be a MyPressi Twist paired with a good hand grinder

As a beginner myself this has been my thinking for the last week or so, and am on the verge or buying a Twist to go with my new vario. But in the last couple of days I have been thinking the Bacchi may be more for me. The main imponderable I face is deciding which may be a better long-term reserve / travel machine, or if indeed the Bacchi may just be all I need for my low volume usage and never need any more.