Hi everyone, this is my first post; I've been lurking here for a couple of years benefiting from all your barista-quality posts, enough in fact that I've had no questions to ask (thank you all). That changed recently when, after 7 years of relying on my Rancilio Silvia, I decided to look for a faster machine that would help get myself and wife off to work in the morning -- a machine that lets one draw shots and steam at the same time.

It seems that the ideal there is a dual boiler, but our budget of $1K to $1.5K eliminates most quality machines; HX is the next option, but that technology too requires a bit of time-consuming pampering to get it right, yet it's faster than fiddling with and waiting on the Silvia.

After just about deciding the Quickmill Anita was the beast for me, I stumbled on the Ascaso Steel Duo Professional, a boiler plus thermoblock system selling at 1st Line for the seemingly amazing price of $899: http://www.1st-line.com/machines/home_mod/ascaso/ascaso_steel_duo_prof.htm

Of course, the next step was to Google using every possible search parameter, but to my huge disappointment and surprise very little is written about the Ascaso. CoffeeGeek does a first look, and promises a full review later, but now after more than two years he's not followed up. The couple of other users at that site who review the Ascaso Steel Duo don't seem experienced enough for me to trust their opinions. And here, the espresso-obsessed center of the universe, one finds nary a comment about the machine's performance. Hmmmmmmmmm.

My brain wonders, is it because the Ascaso Steel Duo is lacking, or is it that no one is buying it, or even giving it a serious look, for some reason?

What sort of reason might it be? I know, for instance, that the quest for perfection, and finding rewarding pastimes that accommodate our obsession with the details or perfection, is the dream of many of us. I myself enjoy such efforts immensely, and in the past have found solace for my compulsion in photography, cooking, and audiophile music obsessions.

While I was driven to achieve music perfection, the guys at Audiogon were invaluable: http://www.audiogon.com/ Or, when I decided to find out how the best pizza could be achieved in the home (and put on 20lbs experimenting), it would have been impossible without the dedicated folks at pizzamaking.com: http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php (just providing some new obsession suggestions ) Many years ago it was photography and the darkroom that consumed my driven nature.

My point is that I have seen in my experience with perfection, and perfectionists, that sometimes a product is rejected because it is too simple to use, thus failing to satisfy the desire to control and fuss over every feature. It may lack the latest technologies like the E61 brew group, or isn't so beautifully shiny and exquisitely complicated like the Anita, etc. Ascaso also might be burdened with the stigma of making almost toy-like machines for the masses.

Of course, it could also be that the Ascaso Steel Duo Professional doesn't work very well.

My desire is for a machine that I can get to pull great shots, certainly of no less quality than my Silvia (better would be nice), but to do that and steam milk for our cappuccinos in half the time I'm spending now.

So, does anyone have an opinion on why the Ascaso Steel Duo Professional seems to be so little discussed? Also, I am wholly open to other (better) options if anyone knows of one.

Thanks,
Les

Les wrote:CoffeeGeek does a first look, and promises a full review later, but now after more than two years he's not followed up.

Mark has made that mistake several times, i.e., posting a first look with promises of a detailed review to follow. He's well aware of it and last I read, he's back at the Ascaso Steel Duo Professional. It may be worth posting in the article's feedback to ask for an update.

Les wrote:So, does anyone have an opinion on why the Ascaso Steel Duo Professional seems to be so little discussed?

I'm not a marketing expert, but I would guess that part of the slow uptake is the Ascaso Steel Duo's price point falling between high-end entry (Rancilio Silvia) and semi-commercial (Expobar Pulser). That and the Internet-savvy espresso shoppers' reluctance to be early adopters.

HB wrote:I'm not a marketing expert, but I would guess that part of the slow uptake is the Ascaso Steel Duo's price point falling between high-end entry (Rancilio Silvia) and semi-commercial (Expobar Pulser). That and the Internet-savvy espresso shoppers' reluctance to be early adopters.

Thanks for responding Dan, you've given me hope the Ascaso might be a solid machine (and great deal), but possibly as yet unrecognized. You are right, about me anyway, I am reluctant to stick my neck out without information. I will try posting at Coffee Geek's feedback to see if Mark responds.

Try sending an email directly to Mark. He may be able to give you some recent feedback. Or, maybe he will send you the machine and allow you to complete the review!

Ciao Les,

I also did a fair bit of research on the Steel Duo. On paper, if you believe the propaganda, it looks great. But it does appear to have been overlooked by the espresso heads. One of the factors, in my view, is that when people upgrade from a single-boiler like a Silvia, they think prosumer, which has become synonymous with big boilers, controlled by pressurestats, not thermostats (unless PID), and no thermoblocks in sight. By comparison, the Steel Duo looks like a small upgrade, and a rather expensive one at that.

Thermoblocks have earned their bad reputation. Not only have they disappointed newbies in Breville & Krups machines, but also in the low-budget dual-boilers (for ex., Gaggia Baby Twin, Starbucks Sirena). So one would naturally expect a degree of skepticism when a boiler + thermoblock machine is offered as an alternative to an HX or "serious" double-boiler (La Spaziale, VBM, Brewtus, La Marzocco).

Add to that Ascaso's rather odd image, which you have alluded to: their flagship, the Dream, is a vastly overpriced glam machine (competing, I think, with the other bimbo-macchina, the FrancisFrancis). No doubt it's been profitable for Ascaso, but that can't be helping them with the well-informed espresso freaks. Even if the Steel Duo works as designed, there's that baggage working against them.

Since I have just upgraded to a very retro lever with a huge boiler, the Steel Duo would not be very tempting to me now. However I would welcome a detailed review, as I dislike speculation.

Buona Fortuna,
Wayne

Les wrote:
What sort of reason might it be? I know, for instance, that the quest for perfection, and finding rewarding pastimes that accommodate our obsession with the details or perfection, is the dream of many of us. I myself enjoy such efforts immensely, and in the past have found solace for my compulsion in photography, cooking, and audiophile music obsessions.

While I was driven to achieve music perfection, the guys at Audiogon were invaluable: http://www.audiogon.com/ Or, when I decided to find out how the best pizza could be achieved in the home (and put on 20lbs experimenting), it would have been impossible without the dedicated folks at pizzamaking.com: http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php (just providing some new obsession suggestions ) Many years ago it was photography and the darkroom that consumed my driven nature.

Les

Hey Les,

I remember Audiogon. I still have my VAC tube amp along with other high end equipment and a great selection of tubes (better than gold I say). I rarely use it now but when I do, it is like angels come and kiss my ears. The ipod and computer have taken over my music listening now. But, I have rarely kicked myself in the ass for buying the best quality and best functioning device I could justify. Considering how much use your espresso machine will get over the years and how much it adds to the daily routine, I would be looking at the top end of your budget. That is assuming you have got a good grinder and I believe the Macap is. These devices get a fair amount of stress when used daily and it would be nice to know you could rely on it working when you "need" it. Of course you could always keep Ms Silvia.

Les wrote:It seems that the ideal there is a dual boiler, but our budget of $1K to $1.5K eliminates most quality machines; HX is the next option, but that technology too requires a bit of time-consuming pampering to get it right, yet it's faster than fiddling with and waiting on the Silvia.
Les

No direct experience with the Ascaso but thermoblock will not perform nearly as well a decent HX. That bit of time-consuming pampering is very negligible in daily use once you've mastered it. Especially easy and repeatable with Eric's thermometer in group. I start my initial cooling flush and start the grind for shot. (Only enough beans in hopper for shot). Grind done and grind hang flushed and brushed quick 2nd flush. Build PF dumping grinds from SS catch canister I use. Flush for shot temp lock and pull. If for a cap' or mach' start steaming right after starting shot. A wee bit of a ritual but it takes very little time and becomes 2nd nature. Much less time, much more accurate and better shots than with Silvia who graced my counter for 4 years. Shot wise my Bricoletta matches shot quality of my 3grp PID'd Linea at my cafe. Speed wise only need ~35sec after post shot group cleaning flush to flash and flush for next shot. (Not all prosumer HX machines recover as fast as the Bricoletta with its 20A versus more common 15A.) Short play with Anita a couple years ago and she recovered much slower needing more time between shots.

Spring for quality and it hurts once and only for a short time soon eclipsed by joy of use. Spring for compromise and it hurts every time you use it! This you seem to already know...

After mastering a Rancilio Silvia for two years, my espressos and cappuccinos became famous among my friends, therefore, I started looking for a different machine that would allow me to pull shots and steam at the same time.
Since Mark's initial review I fell in love with the Ascaso Steel Duo. Keep in mind that his review is just for the regular Ascaso Steel Duo, not for the Professional version with a heftier group, boiler and portafilter. However, it was hard for me to break up with Silvia for obvious reasons.
Finally I saw the professional version at 1st-Line at that incredible price and Jumped on it.
I knew that boiler's size was identical as Silvia's,therefore, I would be able to pull shots at least as good, plus I would have the simultaneous brewing ans steaming. On the other hand, I was used to temperature surfing......
When I got it I was overwhelmed by its heftiness and beauty. However, I was never ever able to pull a decent shot with it. Light yellow crema every time, no matter if I changed the grind, tamped harder, etc....
In other words I said goodbye to the beautiful dark crema shots of my Silvia to welcome these sour light blonde shots I knew that there is a learning curve with every machine, but after 3 pounds of wasted coffee and a couple of bitter nights going to bed at 1 am.... I realized that something was wrong with this machine. On the other hand, the steaming even though it was continuous due to the thermoblock feature it was about half as powerful as Silvias, obviously without the pannarello.
Two days later, I checked the brew temperature using a styrofoam cup and a digital thermometer and I realized that the temperature was only at 193 F after the boiler's light went off.... and I was used 200F on my Silvia.......... Aditionally, the surfing time on Silvia was 1 minute, compared to two minutes on the Ascaso.
The next day I called support and they gave me the option to change the thermostat but since I am not very handy, I just decided to return the machine.
Lesson Learned:
NO single boiler espresso maker at the range of price match Silvia.
Specs can give you a hint of the performance but the true performance has to be tested to make accurate conclusions.
If you want to outperform Silvia you have to be willing to pay at least 1300 dollars for an Alexia.

Now I moved to a Brewtus lll and I am as happy as a boy with a new Playstation lll !!!

Wow, I feel like I've been treated to an intervention I agree with everything said, especially about living with quality, or lack of. I can see I am really under-informed on the state of the art at various performance levels, what's been shown to have problems, just how much work an HX system is to use, etc.

Lockman (Jeff) sent me a link to the impressive upgrades at Hitechespresso, such as to this Quickmill:
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI....&item=280283688557
That one is a bit over budget, but they say they can enhance the Anita too, that might be interesting.

I have also been watching for the new Vibiemme Domobar Junior to get to the US, keeping an eye on the Salvatore reviews, and the economical Nuova Simonelli Oscar seems to get decent reviews.

Anyway, thanks to everyone for your expert advice.

Les wrote:That one is a bit over budget, but they say they can enhance the Anita too, that might be interesting.

You may want to read Why PID an HX machine? Some think it's the greatest thing since sliced bread, others think it's a waste of money.

Les, the Anita and Andreja are HX machines not double boiler.
With HX machines you usually have to flush the brew head with about 4 to 6 ounces of water to be able to pull a shot at the right temperature. On the other hand, some think that PIDing an HX machine defeats its purpose because you either set it up to brew properly affecting the quality of the steam or viceversa.
In addition to that, you can get a Brewtus lll for less money than the PID Andreja of the link.

Doesn't the brewtus have a PID built in?

In all my research, there are a fair amount of posts on having a particular roast change radically at as little as 2 degree change. Wouldn't this be a good reason to have a PID on any machine you can temp surf on?

Yes! Any single boiler machine would benefit having one.

I was talking about HX machines with PID......

The Brewtus lll is a true double boiler and one of the upgrades compared to the Brewtus ll is the excellent quality PID.

Check the new brochures with inside pics, upgrades etc...

http://www.wholelattelove.com/art...light_brewtus3.cfm

So the Heat exchanger machines would not benefit from a PID at all?

Is a type of machine is a Silvia?

Thanks,

Jeff

Lockman, Silvia is a single boiler machine. Brewtus is a double boiler machine.

HX machines are something in between. They have some some pros and cons like every type of espresso machine.

Pros that I know of:

At 120 v and 15 amps the steam power is unmatched.

Cons:

-They tend to run very hot so you have to flush the head with about 5 ounces of water in order to get the temperature down to brew properly.
- Temperature stability
- You have to refill the water tank often.

Double Boiler:

Pros

-Temperature stability


Con:

- at 120 volts 15 amps some people complain about steam power.

In my experience, I do not need more than Silvia's steaming power and Brewtus lll has a drier and more powerful steaming performance

mariowar wrote:
Double Boiler:
[...]
Con:
- at 120 volts 15 amps some people complain about steam power.

I don't understand why double boiler machines would have poorer steam performance than HXs. If anything, I would think they should be superior since you could increase the pressure/temp with no ill effect on brew temperatures. What am I missing? Is it that db boilers are smaller?

Jack

I think he is saying at 15 amps it suffers.

I still dont see why a PID would not benefit either machine.

Jack, to be honest I have never ever tried an HX. What turned me down was the idea of the long flush before brewing. And I just wanted to get rid of surfing and flushing.....

I have read that most of the issues designing home double boiler machines come down to have them working properly at 120 volts /15 amps. If you check, most of the current model being offered are either 20 AMPS or the boilers never heat at the same time, like Mini Spaziale and Brewtus.

As I said, I come form a Silvia, the golden standard of single boiler machines and I do not miss her a BIT and I loved her like no other.

The only annoying issue with either HX or double boilers is that it is a pain in the arse to descal them, therefore, you have to be cautious about the hardness of the water you are using. To hard would ruin your machine in months, on the other hand, distilled ( the softest) would cause issue with the auto refill. Therefore, I purchased a digital TDS (13 bucks in Ebay) to measure it, and I just mix them out

mariowar wrote:The only annoying issue with either HX or double boilers is that it is a pain in the arse to descal them, therefore, you have to be cautious about the hardness of the water you are using[snip]

I remember some of the DB machines having drain plugs on them. Would that make the process easier?

I guess so, but as far as I know, even if they have it , it is not an easy task to get the solution out of the system.

The best thing is prevention, I have read about people using water at about 50 ppm ( compared to 280pp- Tap water in Houston) and running espreso machines in homes for over 5 years without issues related to calcium and magnesium . Then, without knowing this, they had put them apart to descall them properly finding out that there was not buildup.