My espresso machine broke and I am taking a U turn and going lever instead of semi-auto. My grinder is an almost 10 year old rocky, and it needs maintenance (and it is beat up and the doser and step adjuster has issues). My question is, can one purchase a good hand mill that does good espresso grinds? Is it worth it to do this? (I make 2 double shots twice a day in the house, rarely we have some people over and do perhaps 4 at once).

I have been doing some reading, but it sure seems like the consensus (on the net) is that unless you own a Pharo or that $1,000 HG One new thing, that it is hit or miss in terms of grinding espresso from say a vintage mill or even a new Peugeot (not to say they won't). I suppose I am saying I can not find a definitive "yes, this $100 Peugeot will grind espresso just as well as that $600 Mazzer/Macap, it just takes a bit longer".

So, is that true? I just had to replace my espresso machine. If I can get into a grinder for $100-$200 that will perform as well as an Macap/Mazzer/etc, but it just demands a little physical labor and 1m-3min of grinding instead of 30s, I would love to know about it.

Any input, recommendations or personal experiences would be appreciated. I found one person who wants to sell me a Pharo, albeit for $325, and I have read that it makes good espresso grinds, but it does have its own set of small issues from what I have read (burr alignment, if you take it apart it is hell to align again, hard to get the grinds out, have to bang on it to get grinds out, no good way to put a funnel on it, hard to hold).

Thanks.

If you want decent espresso on a budget, it seems to me that a good approach would be to pick up a vintage hand grinder off of ebay and restore it. I grabbed a dingy looking, 50-year-old Kym & Kym for $25 plus a bit of shipping, cleaned it up, and now it works wonderfully. The cup quality is not QUITE as good as my Baratza Vario at its best (I find the flavors to be a bit more muted), but it is close, and the Kym is more consistent and easier to dial in. Obviously, it isn't always possible to tell the mechanical quality of a grinder from what is posted in an online auction, but if you clean them up nicely I'm sure you could resell even a dud at a profit, as plenty of folks seem to collect these primarily for display.

Maybe there is a new product on the market that can achieve the same level of grind quality at equivalent price, but if so, I haven't heard of it yet.

Now with all of that being said, I'm still planning to grab one of the Titan hand grinders once my budget permits it. The more you get hooked on quality espresso, the harder it is to accept "good but not great" as the standard. But I would disagree with you that grinding with a well-restored vintage mill is necessarily "hit or miss." With mine, at least, it has been a fairly consistent pattern of solid hits, but no home runs.

number9 wrote:I suppose I am saying I can not find a definitive "yes, this $100 Peugeot will grind espresso just as well as that $600 Mazzer/Macap, it just takes a bit longer".

I've never put my hands on a new Peugeot grinder, but looking at the size and build quality of these, it is more if a novelty item than a precision tool. That being the case, it is doubtful that one would grind well for espresso. It will certainly not perform like a Mazzer or Macap.

If you want a hand grinder that is comparable to a Mazzer or a Macap, then you are shopping for a Pharos or an HG One. An OE Lido might not be quite as capable, but it is offered at a considerably lower price point (although it is out of production right now) and will definitely work with a lever machine. You can pick up a Rosco hand grinder for roughly the price of a modded Pharos.

You might find an inexpensive ($100 or less) new hand grinder that will work adequately with a low pressure lever machine for a while, but I don't think it is a long term solution. Grinding for espresso is a precision, high torque activity, and the build quality of new hand grinders doesn't appear to me to be adequate to the task. Most new hand mills are designed for all-purpose grinding, for brewed coffee.

While the same is generally true of vintage mills, some hand grinders from the 1950s were intended to be used with moka pots and are capable of a consistently fine grind. Compared to new mills, these vintage machines are also overengineered-containing no plastic parts, for example.

The Pharos or Lido would be the way to go.. I haven't restored an old one yet so I can't chime in there but I own the Hario Skerton and I have been very pleased. I think it would look nice next to a lever machine as well. an M8 nut instead of the stepped adjustment makes it a great stepless hand grinder. Add the OE PFP mod and it will grind anything. It can hold a good amount of beans too.

Hrm this is all very useful information, but it gives me even more questions. I see used grinders on ebay, but a ton of them are "restored" or just plain $100. I see interesting models and makes for around the $100 mark. That puts me 1/3 of the way to the used Pharos (I found out also that it is the early model Pharos). I _thought_ I keep seeing the Pharos on the internet for $245 when it was selling, and they are out of stock until the end of september, so I don't know what a new one actually sells for now.

So, it seems like it is a toss up between the Pharos and either restore a vintage mill or purchase a restored vintage mill. Heck, I could actually purchase the Pharos and a vintage mill and still be below the price point of the Mazzer E B I was looking at... but that begs the question of why do people purchase the motorized if the grinders are $500 less. Surely we (consumers that purchase motorized grinders) are not all that lazy?

number9 wrote:... but that begs the question of why do people purchsae the motorized if the grinders are $500 less. Surely we (consumers that purchase motorzied grinders) are not all that lazy?

Convenience, multitasking with cupping efforts/visiting with cuppers or visitors, no need to putz with hand grinders, time, etc. Amortized over 20 years (my Macap is on year 7), I don't consider a motorized grinder a lavish investment. Assuming my 20 years holds for me, with new burr sets every 4th year, that is $.08 per day investment which is worth it to me.

I have used many of the hand grinders (Hario, vintage Zass, Lido, and Pharos) out there and understand why some find them appealing. I don't. I use them when we travel. Other than that, they are display items at best for me.

Boldjava wrote:Convenience, multitasking with cupping efforts/visiting with cuppers or visitors, no need to putz with hand grinders, time, etc. Amortized over 20 years (my Macap is on year 7), I don't consider a motorized grinder a lavish investment. Assuming my 20 years holds for me, that is $.052 per day investment which is worth it to me.

Yes, we can amortize anything out right? My comment was more tongue in cheek than anything. Still, my Rocky was like $250 nearly 10 years ago. Lets say 9 years, that is 0.076 a day. If I add that to my espresso + milk + machine I am still way ahead of the game, but it is the act of spending the money NOW that gives me pause. Under normal "I am going to upgrade my grinder" circumstances, I don't think I would be considering hand mills. However, under the "my machine blew up and I just replaced it, and I was _about_ to replace my grinder" now that gives me pause as I no longer really have that money to spend.

I suppose that is the rub. I am asking if this is really worth it, not the money over time (if I say the hand mill will last 20 years and it was $100, well that is just over a penny a day in cost), in terms of money now. Do I spend $600 now on a motorized grinder or try out the mill as I just bought an espresso machine? If so, do I go vintage mill, or is some new one say sub $300 that will perform on par with the $600 motorized?

number9 wrote:I found one person who wants to sell me a Pharo, albeit for $325.

Hi number9...just in case you hadn't come across it elsewhere, the Pharos is available new from the makers (orphanespresso.com) for $245 US. It totalled $289 shipped to Canada for me. They are waiting on parts from their burr supplier, and should be selling more soon. I am happy with mine, btw.

number9 wrote:Yes, we can amoritize anything out right? My comment was more tongue in cheek than anything. Still, my Rocky was like $250...

Understand. My comment came from the angle of I amortize any purchase. My vast array of coffee toys is no different.

Understand also, my comment was not negative. If I start thinking of my past and present audio equipment I have absolutely no room to tell anyone anything about justification and amortizing costs.

As an aside, the fellow with the Pharos realized his price error and is lowering it. I may actually purchase it and if I decide I can't stand it later on, I will save up and get the mazzer. Hrmm.