I generally like to do a bit of research on my own before reaching out to the experts, but this time around I am in a bit of a crunch because Valentines Day is coming up and I want to surprise my wife with a new machine. Any advice you could toss my way to jumpstart the process would be much appreciated.

History:
A few years ago I splurged on a Jura Capresso Z6 super-auto. At the time we were upgrading from a combination of a Gevalia drip machine, $300 Krups espresso machine, and blade coffee grinder. I knew before hand that it wouldn't be able to make the 'perfect' shot of espresso, but felt that it was going to be a considerable step up from what we currently had and being very user friendly, my wife would get a lot of use out of it and hopefully she wouldn't have to stop by Starbucks before work every morning.

With that said I'll add that my wife and I enjoy coffee to different degrees. She requires a daily latte to function. I'll drink a latte or plain shot of espresso once a week or so. I like to tinker and she likes things to just work. Since this machine was mostly for her, we took the trade off of convenience over shot quality.

Current:
I don't know if our tastebuds are getting more picky, but lately I have noticed our machine has been putting out 'sour' shots. We use a water filter, regularly descale and clean the machine per instructions, and have roughly 1000 shots under our belt so the machine itself should stil be in pretty good condition. I fiddled around with all the variables I am able to tweak: different bean sources, amount of beans to grind, coarseness of grind, and temperature surfing by running hot water before pulling a shot. Although I've had some success in producing a better shot, it still doesn't seem to run like it did when it was brand new. I think I am going to ship it to the vendor for a factory 'tuning' and see if they can dial it in, but that got me to thinking that maybe it is time to shop for a replacement. What really set the wheels in motion however, is when my wife asked me to pull the Gevalia machine down from storage.

Future:
Instead of repeating the super-auto path again, I think this time I'd like to explore the semi-auto. There still needs to be some degree of user friendliness in that I want my wife to be able to enjoy the machine without having to get a barista degree, if you know what I mean.

I don't really have a budget set yet, but I've arbitrarily started looking at the Expobar IV-R. It seems to be one of a handful of favorites in the middle of the top-tier of units. I like that it can be plumbed in and the quiet aspect of the rotary pump is appealing as well since we have kids. From the perspective of someone that likes the 1-button approach of the super-autos, what do you recommend: a double boiler or heat exchange setup? I got the impression that the HX allows for more flexibility in dialing in your shots, but DB seems like an easier way to get consistent shots. Is this something we could be happy with given our requirements? Anything I am overlooking?

Now along with a new machine, I know that we'll need a new grinder. There seem to be a few in the $600-$1200 range that a lot of people seem pleased with. How much truth is there to the mantra that the grinder is more important than the brewer? One thought I had was instead of dropping $2k + $1k all at once on a new semi-auto + grinder, I could pickup a grinder right now and use it to grind the beans for the super-auto. Would you expect any improvements in our shots or do we need to invest in a new espresso machine to get what we are looking for?

Sour shots are usually due to low brew temperature. As far a quality grinder + super auto improvement, it depends on the condition of the Jura as to whether this will address any problems there. You could get the grinder and another brewing device (I love the Espro Press) so a grinder can be more than just for espresso.

I think that if the machine is used primarily by your wife, she is the one who needs to make the decision. There are more steps involved in using a machine+grinder, and these have to be done with some level of precision to produce good results. Only she can decide is that is something she wants to do (or you, if that is the case). I also think a dual boiler will be less fussy, and coming from a super-auto that is a factor to consider.

The truth about needing a quality grinder is less a truth and more from the mouth of G--. It's a waste of money buying a good espresso machine otherwise. It's even a waste of money buying a bad espresso machine if you don't have a quality espresso grinder.

It sounds like something along the lines of a double boiler would be good since it has that walk up and make a shot approach. I know my wife won't even touch my little Gaggia Classic because she doesnt seem to want to deal with it at all. Have you thought of something along the line of a Quickmill Silvano?

If I were making a similar choice now I would think about the Quickmill Silvano, Crossland CC1, or Breville Dual Boiler. I would pair these with a Baratza Vario.

Randy G. wrote:Sour shots are usually due to low brew temperature.

Our machine only offers 3 configuration settings: hot, hotter, hottest. We are currently using the hottest setting. Maybe this is an indicator that our heating element is failing?

Randy G. wrote:As far a quality grinder + super auto improvement, it depends on the condition of the Jura as to whether this will address any problems there.

I guess I'll wait to hear back from the service center.

Randy G. wrote:You could get the grinder and another brewing device (I love the Espro Press) so a grinder can be more than just for espresso.

We do have a french press and it never gets touched. How does the Espro Press compare with a mokapot?

Randy G. wrote:I think that if the machine is used primarily by your wife, she is the one who needs to make the decision.

Probably true, but she tends to defer gadget purchasing decisions to me since I am more obsessive about reading up on whatever it is we might be getting.

Randy G. wrote:There are more steps involved in using a machine+grinder, and these have to be done with some level of precision to produce good results. Only she can decide is that is something she wants to do (or you, if that is the case). I also think a dual boiler will be less fussy, and coming from a super-auto that is a factor to consider.

We are both engineers so being precise shouldn't be an issue for us. I've mostly ruled out HX machines because the idea of listening to the sounds a boiler makes while heating up to find an optimal time to pull a shot would probably overwhelm her.

Randy G. wrote:The truth about needing a quality grinder is less a truth and more from the mouth of G--. It's a waste of money buying a good espresso machine otherwise. It's even a waste of money buying a bad espresso machine if you don't have a quality espresso grinder.

So what is the rule of thumb for pairing a grinder with an espresso machine -- match dollar for dollar? I have a short list of community favorites ranging from $450 to $2k and don't really understand what the higher price points are buying me.[/quote]

Intrepid510 wrote:It sounds like something along the lines of a double boiler would be good since it has that walk up and make a shot approach. I know my wife won't even touch my little Gaggia Classic because she doesnt seem to want to deal with it at all. Have you thought of something along the line of a Quickmill Silvano?

sweaner wrote:If I were making a similar choice now I would think about the Quickmill Silvano, Crossland CC1, or Breville Dual Boiler. I would pair these with a Baratza Vario.

Is there anything specific that you guys like on the Quickmill Silvano? I noted while looking over the specs that it doesn't allow for a direct water line (and drip line), which is a convenience that I am willing to pay extra for.

Just the cost of the machine really and if you are making only few drinks it would work well. Otherwise there are a good number of plumb in double boilers to go with.

So what is the rule of thumb for pairing a grinder with an espresso machine -- match dollar for dollar? I have a short list of community favorites ranging from $450 to $2k and don't really understand what the higher price points are buying me.

Hard to give a cost ratio, but in my case, the grinder represents +/-50% of the cost of the espresso machine. if someone said they paid more for the grinder I would not be too shocked... well, maybe a little. But pairing a $1500 grinder with a $2000 espresso makes a lot of sense, at least to the lunatics around this board!

The upper end grinders are more robust, built with higher-precision components and better materials, made to last a lot longer, made to take the abuse of a commercial environment, etc. They can be adjusted in smaller increments, create a grind with a particle-size range narrower then their "economy" counterparts, etc. The alignment of the burrs is more precise, the bearings that hold the motor's shat (and thus the lower burr) are more robust and of higher precision, and really, the bottom line is that you can, depending on all the other factors, taste the difference in the cup. Serious tools for serious baristas. The high-end espresso grinders really are precision instruments.

The bottom line: espresso is all about the beans and the grinder first, and the espresso machine second.. or maybe third.

We do have a french press and it never gets touched. How does the Espro Press compare with a mokapot?

I do not have a Moka pot. A moka pot is just a steam driven espresso machine. The Espro makes the press pot obsolete, making a very full-bodied, rich cup of coffee with little effort. They are also going to have a larger model some time this year I think. It eliminates the tendency to overheat the coffee as can happen in a moka pot, and you have more control over brew parameters.

But please ask here as you get closer to a purchasing decision, BEFORE buying. I have read far to many posts that start with, "I just bought..." when there were better possible choices to be made.

If you can plumb in, do plumb in.

It makes life easier, yes. But it's a real boon in terms of developing technique as it doesn't penalize your for using a lot of water.

Consider a budget for machine, grinder (and in your case plumbing). Take your most generous, realistic, frightening number and add half again. That final figure is something you'll blow through. If you're serious about this, and you have financial limitations in terms of what you can actually afford (as opposed to what you want to spend) without eating ramen, figure that as the figure.

DBPIDs (electronically controlled double boiler machines) are a little easier to use than the top HX (heat exchange) machines; and might be somewhat friendlier in terms of what you think your wife wants to do. However, they also might not be. She certainly CAN learn to use just about anything; mostly it's a matter of tasting and persistence. The question is how far she's willing to go for her own great coffee. Don't sell her short.

If it's a partnership decision, respect her input. If you make all the espresso, still respect her input.

Also, don't sell the alternatives short. You may end up as the morning baristas, while she does the pour-over or vacuum pot brews for the rest of the day. And, don't give up on the FP. At the end of the day, you may find that a relatively inexpensive grinder dedicated to the other brew methods ($200ish) is all it takes to make them significantly more drinkable. It did for us.

The espresso machines you find at any of the several price plateaus tend to have more than less in common. A top prosumer DBPID will run you somewhere between $2K and 2.5K. The next step up in DBPIDs, a professional level La Marzocco GS/3 is going to cost you something like $5.5K. On the other hand, a top prosumer HX will cost less than $2K, but a professional level La Cimbali M21 Casa or Elektra T1 will only [cough] cost around $3K.

Yes, it takes a little more to make an HX work really well -- but not that much more. The hardest and most time consuming part of operating a machine is learning to taste, and that's something you have to learn in any case.

Will a GS/3 make better coffee than a Vibiemme Double Domo? Yes. Then a Casa? Not really.

Machine and grinder go together. The relationship should be one of mutual benefit. If you go below a certain level of grinder quality your machine won't produce the kind of coffee it's capable of producing; if you go above them, your machine won't be able to develop all of the nuances that a better machine could. A minimal grinder for one of those top prosumers goes for $500 (Baratza Vario, such a deal; or so I'm told). On the other hand, one of the $1500+ "titan grinders" like a Kony for instance would be overkill. Is a Kony overkill for an Elektra T1? Not at all.

Anyway, figure out a realistic budget based on what you can afford and how desperately you covet "exceptional espresso," and the equipment suggestions will start to make sense. If you're spending Breville money, there's no point talking about La Marzoccos.

BDL

Perhaps try Nespresso and see whether its to your liking. It is startup cost effective and might produce decent cup for you with effort requirements of Super-auto machine. I think Williams-Sonoma might have these on display where you could try them...

As suggested in a earlier post, the Baratza Vario is a capable grinder at the $450 price point. It's value proposition, size, and ease of use has made it a darling for the home user, and Baratza has exceptional customer service if any problems arise. Recently introduced is the Vario-W, which added the ability to grind by weight instead of time.

Are there better made grinders out there? Yes. Are there grinders that produce a better more consistent grind? Yes, but not that many, they cost a heck of a lot more, are much larger, and have various idiosyncrasies like not single dosing well, having high grind retention, etc.

If you're comfortable spending the money, certainly the grind quality of the titan conicals can't be beat, but just be aware of the trade offs of a $1,500 grinder.