Hello, I recently picked up a new espresso machine but since my purchase my interest has grown and I think I have the wrong machine. A couple of weeks ago I decided to replace my automatic Saeco Vienna Digital espresso machine since it stopped making good coffee after 13 years, it needed some work and I decided to put that money towards a replacement. I almost bought another Saeco but then started discussing manual machines to get more control. We hardly make latté based drinks so a single boiler was fine, we ended up getting the Breville 870XL and I can say it has been a rather frustrating experience. This site has not only helped me get a better understanding, and frustrations aside, has greatly increased my interest in making a great espresso.

So this brings me to my predicament. Do I bring my 870 back, take a loss, then pick up a different espresso machine (like a Quick Mill Alexia) plus grinder, or stick with the 870 for now as I learn and upgrade down the road? I have not been able to find any good reviews on the 870, it has a built in grinder but don't know how good it is. I don't expect it to get close to a separate grinder but wonder if it's adding to my struggles and worth the hassles.

Too bad I didn't know I would get the espresso making bug before I picked up the 870, I could have planned and researched better. Thanks in advance for any advice.

The machine you have is a pretty good entry level product. You should stick with it for a while, and see if you can get tasty shots.

Buy a 1/10 gram scale, and see how consistently the timing mechanism doses. Experiment with finer grinds and lower doses, or coarser grinds and higher doses. Whatever your dose and grind, if you keep the flow around 10 to 12 bar, you will know you have packed the puck properly, and that the combination of dose and grind are about right.

Once you've done that; you'll know whether you want to go to a fancier manual machine, or go back to a superauto.

I would say it all depends on what problems your experiencing and what you think your looking at down the road. When I started with my EC155 I quickly moved into a full commercial grinder and as close to commercial espresso machine I could get for my money. Silvia, (full size portafilter and conventional steam wand) used for $350 so I could craft my techniques. I've enjoyed it ever since. So I feel your pain about buying something cheaper and quickly realizing that you shoulda gotten something better. You got options tho.. I agree with what Jim is saying. Id think about whether or not you want to stick with auto or go full manual. If you decide to go manual then yes return the 870 and go bigger.

spressomon wrote:It is key to know what the issue(s) is and/or more about your "frustrating experience" before recommendations for products can have much value. A realistic budget amount for equipment and any space constraints would be helpful too.

Most of my espresso experimentation has happened prior to finding this website. I've been doing quite a bit of reading and trying to digest the info which is making things less frustrating as I get a better understanding. Having said that it just seemed that no matter what changes I made I always ended up with a bitter espresso. Before finding this site I figured my Lavazza coffee was old so I bought a fresh can of Illy and it made no difference. Even when I got I nice crema and my gauge read mid grey area as a proper extraction the espresso tasted bitter. I was trying different grinds from course to fine trying to get at least a taste variance away from being bitter but it wasn't happening. After finding this site now I'm at a stand still because I want to get some fresh coffee beans at a roaster but haven't had time. Also, I've now read about the importance of a good grinder so I question having a machine with one built in. Oh, I did get a less bitter coffee by letting the extraction start and putting the cups under when the crema started coming out.

I'm in it for the long haul, any frustrations don't bother me it just drives me to persist at it until I get it. I survived the frustrations of learning to play guitar when I turned 40, I'm ready to tackle this, lol. Budget wise I'm into it for about $800 already with the 870XL, I could probably go as high as $1500 total. Space wise the hopper clears my upper cabinets by about 3 inches and size wise for counter space the 870 is ideal.

Thanks everyone for the responses!

Well I can tell you that one reason for your bitter espresso is the coffee you are using. Optimal use of fresh coffee beans is within 3-14 days. Well that's my preference. Others may say less than that. From what I know if Illy's version of espresso is quite dark not to mention the can you picked up may have been roasted well after that window of time. Dark stale beans will definitely deliver bitter espresso. Is there a local cafe near by where you can get freshly roasted coffee beans? I'd try that first before returning the machine.

The plus sign in this tho is if your still getting bitter espresso with the 870 grinder using fresh coffee then it grinds fine enough for espresso. All you have to do then is dial back slightly coarser and mess with your dose until you get it right.

Are you able to post a video of your prep with the 870? Your prep may be a factor in your espresso taste as well.

R0bR wrote:Before finding this site I figured my Lavazza coffee was old so I bought a fresh can of Illy and it made no difference. Even when I got I nice crema and my gauge read mid grey area as a proper extraction the espresso tasted bitter. I was trying different grinds from course to fine trying to get at least a taste variance away from being bitter but it wasn't happening. After finding this site now I'm at a stand still because I want to get some fresh coffee beans at a roaster but haven't had time.

R0bR, I also think you'll see a big difference with fresh roasted beans. I see that you're in Toronto. Let me know what part of the city you're in, and I can suggest some good cafes/roasters where you can pick up some good quality, fresh beans.Or, I can also suggest some good roasters that will ship beans to your home very quickly.

You won't believe the difference when you start using fresh beans!
CCG

What type water are you using in your machine ? overly soft water will also produce a bitter shot.

More often than not, "bitterness" is a sign of over extraction, bad beans, or dirty equipment.

The 870XL allows you to control over-extraction to some extent by increasing the dose, coarsening the grinde and lowering the brew temperature.

At the end of the day, you'll want to isolate your variables and dial-in each of them using very controlled increments. However, we're far from the end of the day. I suggest doing all three in a not too subtle amount and see if you can push your coffee from bitter to sour.

Once you've gone from one bad to the other, you can begin making discrete adjustments, and use a "bracketing" technique to balance your coffee's bitters and sours to get the best it has to offer.

Forget the canned stuff. Get some good beans. You're worth it.

In my opinion (opinions vary), three days is not enough rest for espresso. Beans without enough rest will taste "harsh" and "in your face. Stale beans taste "flat." Beans roasted then canned tend to taste pretty good on the first day, but stale very quickly. Assuming you're buying (appropriately) freshly roasted beans, and storing them in an airtight container or unopened, valved bags, the "best" window is from five days post roast up to 17 days.

There are many EXCELLENT on-line sources for beans. Depending on location, it's sometimes easier for most people to find a variety of good beans on-line than it is from local brick mortars. If possible, it's a good idea to use both. Toronto is big enough that it probably offers some good places, eh.

Avoid dark in favor of medium roasts.

Make sure you clean your pf and basket until it gleams, daily. Use a group head brush to make sure the gasket is clean, daily. I don't know what the cleaning procedures are for a Barista Express in terms of cleaning the screen, backflushing (if it can be back-flushed), etc., but everything which touches grounds or coffee should be cleaned... wait for it... daily.

Whatever other cleaning Breville recommends, you should do at least as often as recommended -- including the use of the right sorts of detergents.

Your grinder's burrs are located in a hot, humid environment which will cause them to gunk up more quickly than they would if in a stand alone grinder. That gunk goes bitter, tastes rancid, and causes the grinder to grind unevenly. So, clean your grinder at least monthly.

Rich

another_jim wrote:....Buy a 1/10 gram scale, and see how consistently the timing mechanism doses.....

i dont even own one of those machines, and am curious to know that myself. i had a friend ask me the other day what i thought about that exact machine. i threw my hands up into the air and said "six of one, half dozen of the other"